lombard is stoopid and got caught. armstrong is smart and has the right chemists to administer protocols.
lombard is stoopid and got caught. armstrong is smart and has the right chemists to administer protocols.
stoopid wrote:
lombard is stoopid and got caught. armstrong is smart and has the right chemists to administer protocols.
Which is EXACTLY the way the IAAF and others at the top of the sport want it---just as Charlie Francis will tell you, the idea is to keep it very dirty at the top, so that WRs can be set and spectacular performances can take place, but bust mostly mid and lower-tier international competititors.
Bust the Cathals. Let the Bekeles run 12:30-something 5000s.
stoopid wrote:
lombard is stoopid and got caught. armstrong is smart and has the right chemists to administer protocols.
Which is EXACTLY the way the IAAF and others at the top of the sport want it---just as Charlie Francis will tell you, the idea is to keep it very dirty at the top, so that WRs can be set and spectacular performances can take place, but bust mostly mid and lower-tier international competititors.
Bust the Cathals. Let the Bekeles run 12:30-something 5000s.
Cathal was busted, but EPO or no EPO Cathal was on the road to great improvement with his coach (Mick Dooling) and others in assistance (none of whom were implicated in the EPO use).
Cathal had changed his training and was progressing very nicely. Yes, the EPO accelerated the improvement, but he was still improving, and his logical progression, without EPO could have been.
5000 10,0000
14:30 30:00
14:15 29:30
13:58 29:00
13:45 28:30
13:35 28:10
13:26 27:52
Those are the times, I believe Cathal would have achieved in a year by year progression without EPO, and Dooling will confirm the above, as well as other coaches in Ireland who are familiar with Cathal and his phenomenal work ethic.
As Cathal was (is) not the fastest guy around, he would have had to improve his 1500 time from around 3:50 to 3:45, or 3:43. With that ability to run the 'metric' mile in the '4' minutes equivalent range, Cathal would have continued to improve.
Cathal had been training for years with a moderately effective system of hard runs day after day, very similar to many other Irish lads. Dooling changed all that, with a new focus on drills, bounding, technique work, stretching and other aspects of the sport which are often overlooked by distance runners. I heard from sources that Cathal had drastically reduced his body fat percentage when he got busted.
Yes, what he did was bad, but I feel sorry, in a way, for Cathal, because EPO or no EPO, he was on the road to spectacular improvement.
Now, the man has served his time, paid his dues, and let's let him get on with his life. Treating him like a common criminal is not productive or warranted.
Ghost in Korea
c.moulton (www.gifle.go.kr)
I think this post is pretty accurate. Drugs are just a way for the super talented to try and out-do other super talents. I ran 3:50 for 1500m without it. With it, I could probably hit 3:42 (if that?). Unfortunately I'm still not world class even with drugs. Pretty unique way to look at drug cheats because it actually gives them some credit.
This is absoloute bollocks, the guy is a twat, people missed out on sponsorship, funding, trips, training squads becasue this twat lied and lied and lied, he was a bog standard 14.10/30.00 minute guy and he was not young when suddenly he took that extraordinary leap, for me he should ahve been banned for life, like all the dirty cheats out there. 24.46 is just inside 75's, he was running 68's for 10k when he got busted, he would never ahve and never will get near those times. Why should we welcome him back, he has benefited from training under the influence of EPO, who is to say that those benefits cannot last as they allowed him to train at a higher intensity.
ghost wrote:
Yes, what he did was bad, but I feel sorry, in a way, for Cathal, because EPO or no EPO, he was on the road to spectacular improvement.
Well don't feel bad for him because he suffered due to his own greedy, calculated and dishonest actions. Feel bad for the people he cheated.
reality is fun wrote:
Which is EXACTLY the way the IAAF and others at the top of the sport want it---just as Charlie Francis will tell you, the idea is to keep it very dirty at the top, so that WRs can be set and spectacular performances can take place, but bust mostly mid and lower-tier international competititors.
Yeah that's a solid argument, why not take the word of the person responsible for the highest profile drugs case there's ever been.
Charlie Francis will say anything at all to try to absolve himself.
Stenning - you have a point. But Lombard has come clean (very quickly) and served his time, and is now willing to share his experiences with anyone without deception.
I don't think it is very valid to say he cheated people out of places, because when he qualified for the Olympics, no one else in Eire, except for Carroll, had reached the minimum standards required by the IAAF.
Lombard is genuinely sorry for what he did. We saw his articles in the Irish Press, and he came clean very quickly, and was never ever in denial like so many other EPO users. He knows what he did, and regrets his actions.
If we can all let him get on with his athletics career now, we will see how good he can become once again. This is just a start - 24:40 - 5 miles road is a good tempo road run for him, as he has not started speed work yet. I am told he did that just off of base mileage. His brother in London, also supports him, and they will train together.
He will be back and prove to all the naysayers what a good runner he can be, naturally, without the aid of products.
He made a mistake - paid for it dearly, and now let's get on with it. We can learn a lot from him. He is willing to push himself to the limit, and it will be interesting to see how far he will reach now, especially as he will be under the spotlight.
Ghost in Korea
c.moulton (www.gifle.go.kr)
Ghost - I think you're wildly delusional on the progress Lombard would have made without drugs. He is a bog standard 14 minute plus athlete at best with no evidence to suggest against it. I would estimate that it gave him an approx 5% improvements. How do you know his progression to even 13.58 was achieved without drugs? In an article in the Irish Runner a few months before he was caught he point blankely lied and said he felt his improvement was down to his new schedule of bounding and taking his easy days easier - bullsh*t. The person who wrote the article insinuated he may be on drugs and got a terrible rap for it - every runner in Ireland with half a brain knew for months though what was going on.
This point is a side note but Cathal is a trained solicitor - how many of you would trust this man in court? (well probably a lot given his ability to lie point blank). You make a big deal of how he came clean after he got caught - what use is that, defending himself would have only further embarassed him when he was so blatently on the juice.
The funny thing is - his case goes to show how bad drug testing is at catching the cheats - Cathal was ordering the EPO online and then administering it to HIMSELF! He was then tested like 7 in the year he got caught before he actually got caught. If an amateur like him can get away with it for nearly a year, who's to say how long some of the Epopians and Moroccans can get away with it with a medical team behind them.
Finally, 24.46 is probably representative of his true ability - average, at a push.
Your nformation is incorrect, Cathal's brother lives in Birmingham and not London and due to injury problems has said that he will not run at a good level again. You keep saying he came clean quickly, did he come clean when he was running away from Tergat in the Manchester 10k, did he come clean when he ran his 27.30, did he come clean when he accepted money from the Irish Olympic association allowing him to goa nd train in Italy? NO No No, he came clen AFTER he was caught, he came clean because unlike other cases there was no doubt AT ALL, he was ordering the drugs online and the Irish Customs tipped off the Irish Athletic Association, they knew what he was doing for some time... he came clean becasue he couldn't possibly do anything else, they had tracked the packages, and just waited to test him after the deliveries...
We need people to wise up and stop welcoming cheats back, it devalues our sport and is the reason why the general public has totally lost faith in it, and they are right, we ahve Olympic finals with 5 and 6 athletes with previous convictions for drugs, do you believe they are clean? I don't, once a cheat always a cheat.
ghost wrote:
5000 10,0000
14:30 30:00
14:15 29:30
13:58 29:00
13:45 28:30
13:35 28:10
13:26 27:52
Those are the times, I believe Cathal would have achieved in a year by year progression without EPO...
Oh yeah? Well here's the progression I believe he would have run: 13:58, 13:57, 13:56, 13:55, 13:56, 13:59, retire. And here's the progression my friend believes he would have run: 13:58, 14:56, 12:14, 22:93. See how easy it is to make up hypothetical numbers that have no connection to any rational reality?
Obviously Lombard is a talented runner -- but the fact is, we have no idea how fast he would have run without the drugs, because it's a very nonlinear process. Not only does his oxygen carrying capacity increase significantly due to the drugs, but his ability to train hard also increases as a result, which produces further improvement. We don't know how fast he could have run clean, and neither does he -- and he never will. Sucks, but that's what happens when you cheat.
Here is the link where Cathal presents his sincere apologies, and wants to prove he can run well as a legit. non doped runner.
Check this out:
http://www.rte.ie/sport/2004/0810/lombardc.html
Ghost in Korea
c.moulton (www.gifle.go.kr)
Back track to Lombard interview. Doping or not, the man was on to a much better training system.
Check this:
http://www.irishrunner.com/cathal03.html
Ghost in Korea
c.moulton (www.gifle.go.kr)
Cathal's employer, which has supported him, in times which were rough.
Lombard was an outstanding solicitor/lawyer with a heavy case load of clients. He is now freelance. He never had a problem with regard to his professional life, and that is a good point for him. He never mixed sport with his work, and many of his clients were unaware of his sporting background. Cathal is a modest man.
Ghost in Korea
c.moulton (www.gifle.go.kr)
Ghost my man, reading through your posts in this thread and others I've come to the conclusion that you are dead set kidding yourself. Honestly, you've either cheated in the past yourself or have never competed or are simply irrational and delusional in your defence of drug cheats. It is inconceivable - you seem to actively be a fan of cheaters. This is why absolutely no one agrees with you on this topic. You need to have a good hard look at yourself and figure out why you idolise these scumbags who cheat and steal and ruin it for the rest of us.
You have a good point, and I can see why you think like that.
No, I never cheated, and I was only an average runner myself (8:57/3000 indoor, 14:42 3 miles indoors, 15:17.4 - 5000, 32:22 - 10,000, 51:21 - 10 miles, 1:50.49 - 20 miles, 2:30.41 - marathon). I was selected for Surrey Intercounties 20 mile team in 1979 by Derek Crookes (Belgrave), and ran for Hercules Wimbledon at the time. I saw plenty of runners like Dave Clarke (3:39, 13:22, 27:56, 2:13) and Bob Holt (3:51, 7:59, 13:48, 28:39, 2:16) who achieved classy results by just training hard, and working full time and eating 3 square meals a day. Those guys were my heroes. Lombard is not my hero - but I feel sorry for the man, because I feel the hatred against him has been over the top. I also feel sorry for Lombard, because without EPO he was on to very good improvement with his new coach Mick Doonan, the Leitram guru to Irish Athletics.
I am not a fan of cheaters, but I also think the man (Lombard) has served his time, and believe me, he will not be stupid enough to ever offend again. We can learn from him, and we can also look at improvement in runners who use EPO - after all he is an interesting case study.
There are currenlty some case studies being carried on in Spain with regard to athletes like Fabian Roncero (27:12/2:07) and others, and while they have not been directly implicated in EPO use, some of the athletes have been under suspicion, and are coming 'clean.' They have volunteered to be tested, and we can learn so much. These guys are modern day voluntary lab rats.
Yes, I agree, what Lombard did was wrong, but he has come clean and offered to have his running checked out in legitimate ways.
Just vilifying Lombard for what he did will not allow us to advance. We can learn so much from his mistakes, and we should look at it in that way. And remember, he has served his penalty and is trying to make an honest comeback. Perhaps we should be appreciative of the courage he displays.
Thank you.
Ghost in Korea
chris.moulton (www.gifle.go.kr)
...patting yourself on the back!
this time you have completely lost the plot ghost. why dont you just crawl back into your rabbit hole and stay there on this one
Its Joe Doonan not Mick Ghost.
I admire how you keep your calm against everybody and you do make a lot of sense but I doubt you'll be able to rehabilitate Lombard its almost a lost case.