Should the Website Go Black for a Day?: Dr Who Discoverd Effects of EPO Dies

OK, people raised another good point that this Dr who died did a lot of good with his work, and that that should not be taken lightly. I agree.

But, on the other hand, wejo is pointing out that this Dr's discovery also led to rampant cheating in endurance sports. Now I am not gonna disagee with him on that general point ( OF COURSE cycling had widespread EPO use, of course x-c skiiing did too, and of course running has had some).

All I am saying is: wejo and rojo think they can make their assertions of EPO being responsible for the smashing of distance records and responsible for most of the medal winners in distance events without anyone drawing the logical conclusion that that means they are saying Geb, Bekele, Tergat, Shaheen and other top East African starts of the sport are dopers. They can't have it both ways. They can't make these widespread doping allegations and then say, 'yeah, but I never said those guys were dopers.' THOSE GUYS are the ones doing the things they say doping has been repsonsible for! You can't have it both ways.

And I am not even defending those guys in this particular point of mine . That is for the next discussion. I just want the brojos to cop to who they are accusing, while promoting the hell of these same stars on their site. It would be like a MLB site saying: " steroids are the sole reason that several players destroyed Rogers Maris' single season homerun record," and then someone saying- "so that means you think Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds were on steroids ? " And the MLB site saying, "well, no, we are not saying that." Can't have it both ways.

I'd like the brojos to answer my question directly: so you are both saying that you think Geb, Bekele, Tergat, Shaheen and other top East Africans are cheaters? If not, then retract your statements about EPO being responsible for all the WR's and medals in our sport. If so, say it front and center, loud and clear, and then stop praising them and promoting them on your site.

Stick it, Doc Redundant.

I\'ve heard Wejo and Rojo have joined the U.S. Army. We can celebrate after Wejo and Rojo come back from Iraq one to two years from now. Good luck boys.

we are very sad today. Without you we would be just a regular runner. SAD NEWS!!!

Don't bash Wejo and Rojo for making the comment about it not helping set world records. For one they never said world records in distance running. Two I think and this is just my opinion I'm sure a few other are with me here in saying that Geb, Bekele, Tergat, HG, etc... and the rest of the africans have such a genetic advantage that no European, russian, american, non-african even with the help of drugs can beat them from time to time without these guys having an off day. They are that much more talented than the rest of the world that only a guy like Craig M could slip in on occation. You know what I think that the Africans only cheating occurs at the jr level to put in older athletes than what are allowed that is clearly the extent of their cheating it ends there.

Everyone knows EPO helps endurance sports more than sprint events. And read Rojo's piece I linked to. He is EXPLICITY talking about distance races. This is all about distance running, don't kid yourself.

What does that have to do with wejo's post? He and Rojo said EPO are responsible for all the smashing of world records we saw in the 90's and most of the medals. Aren't Geb, Bekele, Tergat and the rest of the East Africans the ones doing most of those things? So, by implication, the brojos are saying that "those guys are dirty." What other conclusion can one make? I'd just like them to come out and say it straight out.

(Sorry for repeating myself several times, but I guess the brojo's don't want to answer my question).

Why would he name names if there was no proof they are doping? If wejo/rojo said who they think are dopers, that would just cause more pointless debate. What, if wejo says runner "X" is on drugs, you are going to believe him? Why?

the East Africans don't need drugs to break wrold records.

God doped them to hell and back :-)

wejo said "world records," not "distance running world records," you imbeciles.

Lets see here...

Saving lifes or cheating at putting one foot in front of the other really fast. Yeah, lets focus on the latter. Dumb asses.

Brilliant, wejo. Vilify Dr. Eschbach and epo for what he and this drug have done to track and field. Head down to your local hospital and visit dialysis. Explain your proposed protest to the renal failure patients spending the morning hooked up to a machine. Then visit oncology. I'm sure those who have the energy (hgb > 7) would love to hear your rationale. You should take that comment off your front page. It makes you look foolish.

Hello? Wejo, Rojo?

Are you going to step up?

We're waiting to hear your reply...

After all the good you've done calling attention the the cheats in our sport, the least you could do is answer a legit question...

I am sure wejo will cop out and say e was onl jesting about this proposal. The act of an immature 30 year-old, who is avoiding growing up.

"Dr Who" did NOT discover the effects of EPO. He was too busy traveling through time in the Tardis to concern himself with such matters

Is there any doubt that he was jesting? Relax guys. Wejo is making a point about an unfortunate consequence of the groundbreaking drug, EPO. He is not accusing anyone in particular. We all know that he is a crusader against drugs. Give him some latitude. He plays an important role.

whaler wrote:

Hello? Wejo, Rojo?

Are you going to step up?

We're waiting to hear your reply...

After all the good you've done calling attention the the cheats in our sport, the least you could do is answer a legit question...

webby wrote:

Is there any doubt that he was jesting? Relax guys. Wejo is making a point about an unfortunate consequence of the groundbreaking drug, EPO. He is not accusing anyone in particular. We all know that he is a crusader against drugs. Give him some latitude. He plays an important role.

Whaler, thanks for the follow-up. I was gonna let it drop since no one else seemed interested in my question, but since you asked also, I bump this again.

And Webby, there are 3 different issues here-

1) whether wejo was joking about his "blackout" idea. Of course he was, so we can let that part drop.

2) Was he disrespecting the good Dr. in question? Some raised a good point that this DR did a lot of good for a lot of people, but I actually agree that wejo was NOT slamming the Dr., but simply pointing out that what he developed hurt sports unintentionally. And since it was part of a joke anyway, it's also no big deal.

3) the point I raised. Wejo might be joking about blackouts and the Dr being indirectly responsible for cheating, but he and his brother seem DEAD SERIOUS that they think that EPO is responsible for most of the world records and most of the medals in the sport of distance running, ie, the people that set those records and won those medals are doped to the gills. Fine, many others think so too. But I just want him and his brother to come out say so if they think so, and to realize, if they somehow don't, who exactly they are accusing with their statements. IF they don't think that all the best guys are doped, then Rojo should retract the piece he wrote a few years ago on EPO and distance running, and wejo should retract his statement on this thread. I am just looking for consistency or straightforwardness from them on this important issue.

If they really think Geb, Bekele, Tergat, and Shaheen and most of the other top East Africans are doped out of their minds, then they shouldn't use them to promote their site and make $. They should ignore them or slam them. But they shouldn't indirectly, but strongly, accuse them in one manner(as they have in the pieces I pointed out), and then act like they think they are clean and praise them in other instances.

i've been a reader of the letsrun message board for the past several years now, and until today i've never posted a response. i cannot keep quiet on this issue; wejo/rojo, you do owe the Eschbach family an apology. in my opinion, you two have used the death of this doctor to get a cheap point on your anti-doping agenda at the expense of Eschbach and his family. although i believe your efforts are noble in regards to exploiting drug users, keep your guns pointed at the USERS; not the doctor who stumbled on this particular substance in an effort to help cure the suffering of others.

thank you grif for posting the obituary.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

Wejo might be joking about blackouts and the Dr being indirectly responsible for cheating, but he and his brother seem DEAD SERIOUS that they think that EPO is responsible for most of the world records and most of the medals in the sport of distance running, ie, the people that set those records and won those medals are doped to the gills.

. . . IF they don't think that all the best guys are doped, then Rojo should retract the piece he wrote a few years ago on EPO and distance running, and wejo should retract his statement on this thread.

I just went and read the R. Johnson article that you referenced:

It is clear from this that at least Robert attributes many/all of the records to EPO. As a statistician, I think he's got a pretty weak case for a causal connection between the drug and current WR times. To start, while there has been a great deal of improvement, deviations from a smooth growth curve that we've seen in the past 20 years don't stand out as extreme. Many more dramatic outliers happened before 1989.

So an argument could be made for the improvements being entirely random. More likely, there are a whole host of reasons, including, perhaps, money, competition, information, globalization, the proliferation of pacesetting, and (no reason to rule it out) drug use.

I agree with you, Sir LA, that the vague accusations are tiresome. On the other hand, it's not realistic to ask them to make specific accusations. We know, and they will certainly admit, that they don't have evidence against any WR holders. I applaud their efforts to publicize the problem and shame proven cheaters. But I also suspect that paranoia has gotten the better of many of the running drug vigilantes on this board.

First, Wejo seems to imply that all or (more likely) most of the records have been set and all the olympic medals won by doped athletes. This is unfortunately debatable, and not completely outside of the realm of the unrealistic. I admit am not qualified to give a significant opinion on the matter.

The second, more controversial, implication of Wejo's post/front page commentary is that the Dr. Eschbach is responsible for the drug problem in track and field:

"The Man Responsible For Possibly More World Records/Olympic Medals Than Anyone In Track History Has Died"

It's possible that Wejo meant that Dr. Eschbach's discoveries had unintended consequences in the way that scientific advances lead to the development of deadly weapons.

Even if this is what Wejo meant, the comment seems rather underhanded and poorly communicated. I think the subject is interesting and important for the sport, and I would like to hear more of what Wejo thinks. The comments as they stand seem like poorly directed bitterness.