Ramaala says American runners are innately equal to the African: I say that\'s B.S.!

Agreed

kartelite wrote:

... Americans will never be on the same level as African runners on average. Of course their are expectations, but they are just that .. EXCEPTIONS

Hello Sir Lancelot.[/quote]

Because only one person who has ever posted here believes phenotypes are transmitted genetically...[/quote]

Thanks kartelite. The thread-starter was indeed not me. Either that, or I am lying and the 6 or 7 other posters who have already agreed with the OP on this thread are also me too.

Yup, I am the only whacky, crazy lunatic who thinks that people whose ancestors came from certain unique geographic regions of the globe might somehow be born with slightly different genetic makeups than people whose ancestors grew up from other regions. Yup, lock me up!

Fins wrote:

I would wager that if 100,000 people packed stadiums all over the country to watch distance runners every weekend in the fall, the U.S. would dominate the distance rankings.

The sad fact is that most Americans would rather chase balls around than run--it's a cultural, rather than a genetic difference.

You don't hear many people talk about the Fins obvious genetic distance running superiority anymore.

Those 2 arguments are always brought up and I really think they don't make a lot of sense.

1) You REALLY think that the average professional football, baseball, hockey, or basketball player has the build and muscle type of a potentially great distance runner?? C'mon. There might be a handful at most who could have the potential to be great in distance running and also a professional in one of those sports. Or do you believe that offensive lineman and power forwards would have migrated to being great 5k runners if there had only been enough interest and $ in running in this country? You gotta be kidding me with that train of thought. THese sports have at most taken away a few potential great distance runners in my opinion, which is not much at all.

2) the Finn argument is also a bit silly, because you will not be able to go back in time and show me an all-time 5k or 10k list where nearly all of the top 30 or so are from Finland or that region of the globe. Can you? No. Or, can you show me a time when any region of the globe dominated world cross like East Africa has (now with men AND women) over the last decade or more? Or dominated a major marathon like the Boston Marathon? Certainly NOT to the extent that East Africa has done all these things.

So sure, the Finns had a good run, but it was nothing like/ not even close to what East Africa has had the last 20 years.

So sorry, but those arguments are just not very good ones at all at explaining away the dominance of the East Africans.

Because those stories are just that - Stories - I grew up in the area and trust me that guy was probably pounding the roads for two hours a day before he ran that 30km.

One thing about these guys - they dont have the same mental limits placed on their training as us western athletes do.

You will often find a guy out running and ask him how often he trains and he will say well I run from x town to y town everyday which turns out is like 30 km over hilly terrain.

So he lands up covering 210km a week and still doesnt think he is training to his full limit. Theses guys can go for two years like that before they enter a competitive race so to us westerners it appears he came from no where but he has been at it for over two years.

Your arguments about genetics show how little you know about the subject. Read and learn about gene expression, which, in running terms is dependant on your training.

American coaching in general is lousy, whereas many African runners do far superior training.

Hendrik Ramaala knows exactly what he is talking about, he can take a more circumspect view, being a South African, not a North or East African.

I agree with Ramaala. America sporting culture is complete saturated. Running probably isn't getting the best athletes in the country. They are likely choosing other sports at a young age.

Where as in Africa there are fewer options for athletes. Obviously the USA has some very talented runners that chose the right path, but I argue there are some other olympic sport athletes as well as Pro League Athletes that have the ability to compete. The bottom line is the best athletes in the world are from the United States. Money, education, drugs, and treatment are in abundance here.

I guess these last few posters really don't get it and Rammala, whether he meant it or not, is wrong in his assumptions.

South Africans, Maroccans had a few good ones, but nothing like the Rift Valley Folks. THERE IS SOMETHING SPECIAL THERE!

I have posted several times but this is my last one.

One last example, that is!

About a year back I visited and ran with a High School XC Team. As a fairly accomplished runner myself, I ran with the team and was treated as their guest of honor, if you will. Well, it turned out they were doing a tempo run that day and I jumped in to work out with them.

When the pace really picked up, I noticed there were only 4 of them left, coincidentally the only 4 black kids on the team of 20+. Before I knew it, I was under siege. They were taking turns surging and trying to break me.They spoke a language I could not understand and they looked magnificent.

To make a long story short, these kids were from Burundi and they were easily the top four runners for the team.

Whether they ran to school or not before they came to America, I don't know. What I do know however, is that they looked like running machines. Small, light,gracefully skinny bodies which seemed to naturally belong to the sport of distance running. They stayed together till the end, well ahead of the bulk of the team which consisted of American kids.

I talked to their coach recently and he told me they seem more interested in making the soccer team than sticking with running, oddly enough.

Evolution was at work there for thousands of years? And it all came to fruition in just the past 20? I find it hard to believe that they are these genetically superior beings and that their evolution as such just "appeared" in the past 20 years.

midwesta wrote:

Evolution was at work there for thousands of years? And it all came to fruition in just the past 20? I find it hard to believe that they are these genetically superior beings and that their evolution as such just "appeared" in the past 20 years.

Only a few east africans competed on an international level 20+ years ago. Famous running journalist Scott Douglas visited Iten a few years ago. The small 3000 people town has produced an incredible amount of world class runners. He noted that at least 95% of the people there had perfect running bodies: thin, narrow hips, long legs, thin calves. The average European/American just doesn´t look like that even if we got rid of all our body fat.

not only do i disagree w/ the OP...i couldn't disagree more...the sedentary lifestyle that we as americans live is the reason the africans are better...they are out busting their butts from day 1 and continuously strive to improve...they are not genetically better they are working harder!!!

I lied ...

One more example now that I'm at it with passion!

A few years bach there was an article about an Ethiopian tribe living at really high altitude who puzzled scientists.

Up to that point in time the had the Andean Model living high up in Peru or Chile, I don't quite remember. Large toracic cavities, enlarged hearts, blood levels that reflected the harsh conditions those bodies were subjected to - that was the Andean Model.

The Ethiopian tribe lived under similar conditions but exhibited none of the transformations. They simply adapted to that altitude as if it was nothing and that's what was being discussed in the article. Scientist were puzzled by their findings. Somebody, please dig up that article for me!

This information alone can indicate that genetics are geography can make a difference. In a 25 lap race, that difference can be pretty significant.

Evolution was at work there for thousands of years? And it all came to fruition in just the past 20? I find it hard to believe that they are these genetically superior beings and that their evolution as such just "appeared" in the past 20 years.

...........................................................

about 20 years ago is when they really found out (in mases)that competitive running exists!

The Rock says that maybe you white, overweight, McDonald's eating, cubicle workin' piles of monkey shit should quit worrying about why the Africans are dominating and start working your asses off and getting good yourselves. The Rocks thinks your excuses are complete bullshit and just make you look like weak, shriveled up, monkey penises. The Rock says, know your roles, shut ya mouths, and run some damn intervals. And if you don't like that, then Rock says this... The Rock says take your brand new, spiffy 150 dollar pair of Zoom F***nuts or whatever the hell shoe nike conned you into buying this month... spit shine those sumbitches up as nice as possible. Make them look pretty. Then The Rock says you can go ahead and shove them up your candy asses cuz, judging by how big of walking, talking women on your periods you all sound like, you probably like to take it up the pooper. IF YOU SMELLLLLALLALALALALLLLLLLLLLLLL... WHAT THE ROCK... is cooking.

they are not genetically better they are working harder!!!

.........................................................

sure they do......when they got a V12 for engine!!!

www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/252649199v1.pdf

snykaher wrote:

they are not genetically better they are working harder!!!

.........................................................

sure they do......when they got a V12 for engine!!!

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/252649199v1.pdf

Thanks snykaher. I've posted that article many times here and been bashed relentlessly for posting "pseudo-scientific" articles. Don't bother trying to defend that article as proof of anything, because the passionate "all humans are genetically exactly the same" crowd will attack.

But hey, let's just start with an easier question for them:

Could someone please give me the cultural explanation for why 100m/200m runners of West African descent are sooooooooooooo much better than the 100m/200m runners of Euro descent?

Seriously, anyone?? Is it because football attracts away all the potential white sub 10 sprinters only, and not the black ones? Is it because black kids sprint to school to get away from gangs that make them so fast, and white kids don't? Genetics play NO role in this difference????

Since this crowd usually can't answer this question with a straight face with the reasons I've suggested, they usually resort to this: the PC liberal media tells white kids they are not fast, so they don't bother trying sprinting, since they just accept that they can't beat the blacks sprinters. Yup, every single one of the millions of white kids that have grown up in this country have fallen prey to this viscious media conspiracy, and not one of them has been able to rise above it and break 10.00. So sad, so very, very sad that is.

But seriously folks, someone give me a "cultural only" explantion for this sprinting difference. I'm allllllll ears. When you can't, we'll move on to distance running.

Excellent post, Rock.

It's not an excellent post. It's a stupid post. Look at a guy like Mark Nenow. That guy was talented, had the build and stride of a Kenyan, and trained as hard as anyone around. 150 mile weeks at a solid clip. And he only ran 27:20, a full minute behind the WR. All that talent and hard work, and he still gets lapped. Guys in America train just as hard as guys in Africa, many of them having had an excellent base playing soccer as kids. If you do not believe there are genetic differences, then you are an utter fool.

Genetic differences? You disagree with The Great One and your argument is genetic differences? The Rock wants to know where in the blue hell do you come up with this logic. The Rock says this... The Rock has a story to tell. A story about two different boys, from other parts of the world. Boy number one's name is Randy. Randy is from Rhode Island. Randy is 11 years old and spends his days riding the bus to school, playing on the slide during recess, riding the bus back home, eating some chicken nuggets, then spending the remainder of his evening watching Sponge Bob Square Pants and playing World of War Craft on his computer and maybe eating some delicious ice cream before bed... the same computer his older brother views pornography on after Randy goes to bed. Now, the other little boy The Rock wants to tell you about is named Ticktockbarackobackabackback. This little boy is from Kenya. The way Ticktocbarackobackabackback spends his days is like this. This boy, who is 11 just like Randy, he gets up early and tends to work around the house. Fill some water troughs, tends to the food his family has planted etc. Then, the boy runs to school, which is about three or four miles away. During lunch he runs back home, eats some rice and other food that resembles paste with no taste, then runs back to school, finishes his studies, runs back home and then does some more work around the house before eating some more pasty food and going to bed. Ok, that is The Rock's story. Now, you run your mouth about genetic differences but the Rock says you can take that argument, turn it sideways and shove it straight up your candy ass! The Rock oughta lay the smack down on your monkey ass right now for making up such a lame argument. Also, the Rock didn't know Nenow was still running. The Rock thinks the world record was significantly slower than 26:20 during Nenow's heyday. The Rock thinks that it was closer to 27:05. The Rock says this... do you honestly think that lifestyle differences that are as vast as in my stories cannot squeeze out an extra 15 seconds? The Rock says know your role, shut your mouth and grow a pair of testes because the way you are whining and bitching about the unfairness of life, he thinks you must have a clitoris the size of a newborn baby's forehead. IF YOU SMELLLLLLL... WHAT THE ROCK... is cooking.

Rock, you shoulda stuck to the humor angle, it was a better fit for you.

Kids from comfortable middle class upbringings have turned out to be great runners all the time. Poverty is not as romantic an upbringing as you make it out to be. Your little boy from East Africa is just as likely to die from some prevalent disease in his country, or starvation, as he is to turn out to be a great runner. That sorta makes the east african upbringing just a tad less ideal than you suggest for producing a plethora of great runners, huh?

Anyway Rock, tell me a story explaining why black kid A from the US runs sub 10 for the 100, and white kid B runs 10.5. Because sprinting is such haaaaard work, I am sure the story will be all about hard work and motivation, and not at all about talent, right?

(oh, and by the way, if your Dad had not been Rocky Johnson, you wouldn't have been crap at wrestling! It's all in the genes Rock!)