Webb/Aouita - only two ever sub-27:40/sub-1:44??

then again i suppose any time would be arbitrary

carry on

So is the distance of a meter Pre, does that make a 100 meter race unfair?

Aouita was a self-proclaimed doper. Can't compare him with Webb.

Nice point on the steeple. It is incredible though how close Webb is to Aouita. Hope he runs well in Osaka. If they keep challenging you about Aouita's credentials, just go into 'number of races won in top european track meets'. That should settle it!

I am looking forward to reading your response to 'asdfdafdf'. Or won't you bother?

You are right, it is really incredible how close Webb is to Aouita on the clock. And I will look forward what he can achieve in the future, especially at the World Champs and the Olympics and if he still can improve some of his marks. But that Aouita still is another class than webb is no question to me. Webb has a lot to show until he could be ranked that high.

To the doping offence: I usually don't write something to such stupid comments. In the case Aouita - Webb there are 4 possibilities:

1) both have never done something illegal to better their performances (doping)

2) both have done something illegal

3) only Aouita has done something illegal

4) only Webb has done something illegal

None of us knows which of the 4 points is the truth. I never thought Aouita maybe has reached some of his great achievements because of the use of doping - but I don't know.

Hopefully he'll still be very competetive in the middle distances in a couple of years. Marathon has doomed a number of people also. He's talented enough where the marathon is something he should stay away from, theres no good reason why he should race one. None of the guys you mentioned are the same animal as Webb, they dont have nearly the same speed and talent.

Of course Aouita is at a higher level then Webb. Imagine how fast his times would have been today with minor improvements in track surfaces, shoes, training techniques etc. Not to mention stronger competition (Someone will say 'not to mention EPO'). His times would be more like this:

800m: 1:43 (dead or high 42's)

1500m: 3:27

3000m: 7:26

5000m: 12:49

10000m: 27:15 (conservative estimate)

Blood doping is probably the only possibility with Aouita. EPO wasn't available during his time (not that I am aware). I think it's more likely that he was clean. Viren was known to use the technique and it enabled him to peak for the Olympic Games. I don't know a lot about Lasse's career but as far as I know he didn't achieve much outside of the games. Aouita won races at various distances in the european meets all the time in the mid-late 80's. His performances were very consistent. Just extraordinary ability I like to think. The fact that he had such high 800m speed also gives his 5,000m success more credence. Aren't blood doping and EPO more endurance enhancements then anything else? Said had more basic speed (natural ability). Plus he was the only Moroccan achieving anything until Brahim Boutayeb came along in Seoul. Aouita was truly unique. That's enough pondering.

60secsurge wrote:

Imagine how fast his times would have been today with minor improvements in track surfaces, shoes, training techniques etc.

that argument makes sense when talking about an athlete from the 60's, not the mid-80's. he had all-weather trcks, 4oz spikes, and basically every training method available today except daniels had been made public (even Coe's). as for better competition, he had cram and coe at 800 and 1500m, but might have benefitted from stronger opponents at 3k and 5k.

his times are worth what they are.

Next time you throw crap like that out, without any backup details, either use your registered name or real name. Don't be a punk!!! I bet you were still drinkin from your mama's cans when Aouita was in his prime.

Remarks from Aouitas potential.

800m Soul 1.44,06. Aouitas distance was c. 807m

1500m Nizza 3.29,71. Aouitas distance was c. 1509m.

His speed at final meters was 7 m/s(800m) and

7,5 m/s (1500m).

Mathematically his times were c. 1.43,1 and c.3.28,5

Helsinki wrote:

Remarks from Aouitas potential.

800m Soul 1.44,06. Aouitas distance was c. 807m

1500m Nizza 3.29,71. Aouitas distance was c. 1509m.

His speed at final meters was 7 m/s(800m) and

7,5 m/s (1500m).

Mathematically his times were c. 1.43,1 and c.3.28,5

Hello "Helsinki", can you please tell me where you got this data? Is it "only" an personal estimate, or were there something like an "serious" video analysis behind that? Please, it is very important for me!

I always was abolutely sure, that Aouita ran in Seoul in '88 some meters more than 800m, but wasn't sure about how many meters. Paul Ereng ran an fantastic race there, no question about that. But he also had some luck (not very good english I think...?!). Without his injury and with the same luck which Ereng had (he could ran the whole race directly at the curve and never did loose anything of his speed because of some of the other runners) Aouita would have won that race (also Peter Elliott on the straight wasn't very helpful for him...). I'm absolutely sure.

The two numbers you mentioned (1:43,1 and 3:28,5) are around what I always thought Aouita could have run. Also in Nice in '85 Aouita definitely was capable of a better time than his 3:29,71.

Sometimes I almost got mad thinking about the question what Aouita could have done if he had other competition: Kipketer over 800m, El Guerrouj over 1500m, Gebrselassie in the long distances... I think he would have concentraded more. He would have had no chance against Kipketer I think. But a championship race against El Guerouj!!! Wow. I'm sure Aouita would be a great challenge for El G. And if he had concentraded on the long distances against Gebrselassie? No idea. Aouita v. Gebrselassie in the 3000m or the 5000m!!! I'm dreaming. I give Aouita a 7:26 over 3000m and around 12:50 over 5000m when concentrating on the distances. But regardless what he said or what has been written about him: he was not a runner for times but an fighter!!! First of all he was not a record breaker but he liked competition. I can say this after watching close to hundred of his races on video. Some (like Seoul '88 or Nice '85) dozens of times. I'm also absolutely sure Aouita was capable of a sub-27 10000m. But he totally lost his determination in the 90s. The bronce medal in Seoul totally destroyed his dream: Olympic Gold medals in Seoul over 800m and 1500m. Olympic Gold medals in Barcelona over 5000m and 10000m. What a dream! And he tried it. That's really fantastic. He failed.

The analysis is based on my video of that race. In fact

it is a conservative estimation, because tv picture

doesn`t show Aouita between 200m-250m.

So, second curve 1-2m, third curve 2m, last curve 4m.

Aouita was indeed the fastest man of that race.

Erengs theoretical time was c. 1.43,3.

Generaly I am suprised how little the so called

experts see this geometrical factor in ideal racing.

Sebastian Coe, for example,was a master in running wide.

In his two Olympic 800m finals he run cumulatively

1621 meters.

Helsinki wrote:

Remarks from Aouitas potential.

800m Soul 1.44,06. Aouitas distance was c. 807m

1500m Nizza 3.29,71. Aouitas distance was c. 1509m.

His speed at final meters was 7 m/s(800m) and

7,5 m/s (1500m).

Mathematically his times were c. 1.43,1 and c.3.28,5

no one ever runs exactly 800m in an 800m race, or 1500m in a 1500m race. one would have to run exactly along the inside of lane one, touching the rail with each left foot step. everyone who has ever run an 800m race has probably gone 805m+ and likewise for the 1500m.

it is pointless to convert down to the exact distance. his times were 1:44.06 and 3:29.71 for those two races, no faster.

I think it is very intersting to estimate the real distance which was run when it is obvious that the athlete has to run wide in the curve.

I don't think you are right with your point that you have to run exactly along the inside of lane one to get the exact distance. As far as I know, the distance is measured some 30(?) cm or so inside the lane.

Don't take it to seriously, for sure it is only a game. But (for me) an very interesting one. Paul Ereng is the Olympic Champion from '88 in the 800. Nobody wants to question that.

i think, you're an idiot

Really intersting is the question, who is the closest to Aouita and Webb in the 800m-10.000, combination.

The two closest to them really seems to be:

Kipchoge Keino with 1:46,41 and 28:06,4

Francesco Arese with: 1:46,6 and 28:27,0

Haile Gebrselassie probably also was capable of an 1:46 800m, but he hadn't done it. And his 1:49,35 which he did indoors, definitely is not anything like an international class performance, so I would not mention him in such a ranking.

I am not an expert, but surely minor improvements have been made with spikes and tracks. The major improvements did come in the 60's and 70's though. I take your point on training. Cram and Coe were running around 3:29, 3:30 for 1500m? Imagine if Aouita had raced El Guerrouj? Lagat was dragged through to a 3:26. I think it's realistic that Said would be in the 3:27 range. All hypothetical though.

"Haile Gebrselassie probably also was capable of an 1:46 800m, but he hadn't done it. And his 1:49,35 which he did indoors, definitely is not anything like an international class performance, so I would not mention him in such a ranking."

You just did mention him. (I'm being a smartarse)

I love your passion for Aouita. There is an interesting/funny thread on what your favourite activities are apart from running. Maybe you should write 'watching Said Aouita while masturbating'. I guarantee it will get a few laughs!

"One would have to run exactly along the inside of

lane one touching the rail with each left foot step.

Everyone who has ever run an 800m race has probably

gone 805m. It is pointless to convert down to the

exact distance."

First of all, you should learn the tecnical rules of

track running. You don`t have to touch the rail

to run exact distance. It is 30 cm from the rail.

You are saying that everyone is running 805m. I have

a video collection of hundreds of 800m races and I

can say that you are totally wrong. It is not a big

problem to run 800m or close to it, like 1-2m

extra. But in Aouitas case it was 7 m. All in all

you are totally misunderstanding my point.

I am not trying rewrite the results of those races.

I am trying to analyse Aouitas potential.

You are writing that it is pointless to convert those

times. That depends of course how deeply one is

interested in running. It is the same thing with

split times. You can run 3.35 in many ways.

Even pace or whit very fast last lap,say 51 sec.

Your logic says"both run 3.35 and that´s it. It is

pointless to speculate that the latter one might have

potential to much faster times."

By the way both Kipketer and El Guerrouj had ideal

running line in their fastest races, both run

800m and 1500m as accurately as it is possible.