jtupper & others with knowledlge why does the USA suck

DougC wrote:

I think the talent pool has been shrinking the past 20 years or so... Too many very good collegiate runners just hang 'em up too soon. The pressure to get a "career" and the fact that there are so many options for someone with a Bachelor's degree and almost all of them pay better than running. I believe that's a reason why US distance running is worse now than it was 20+ years ago. It's not the only reason, but an often overlooked one.

I find this a little hard to believe since there is some money out there now. In the past, the athlete retired because there was only under the table money. The athlete then had to get a job.

The truth wrote:

A fair amount of blame must go to the Western impatient mindset. You ever see an African train? Afterwards he can go sit in the shade for the rest of the day and be perfectly happy doing zip. Just watching the world go by.

And drop this nationalism shit. If there was only one country in the world, and none of this nation-state nonsense, you wouldn't be thinking, "we suck!". You would then see that Geb and El G are just two supremely talented individuals who could've come from anywhere.

The Africans don't have to work for a living, even the beginners, unless they join the police or the military. Western distance runners do, unless they're at the top. The IAAF subsidizes what the Federations won't. Westerners, to be blunt, are also driven to succeed in areas outside of sports because they HAVE TO.

There's also nothing wrong with Nationalism. It seems that the only people being brainwashed away from Nationalism are naive Westerners, while the rest of the world is becoming more Nationalistic. The sense of Nationalism that the Kenyans have helps them along, as do other factors.

I agree that we don't know more now about how to prepare than we did 30 years ago. We just don't have as many people doing it. BUT, I think it would help if we had our selection races 2-4 weeks before the big meets. Our distance people essentially tried to peak for the Stanford meets in May hoping for a qualifier and held it to the nationals in late June. Then they had to hold that peak until the end of August, which is way too long to do, but too short to back off and come to another peak. And train like Shorter Rodgers, Virgin, Nenow, Hodgie, and...and...gasp, MALMO did.

According to Steve Spence:

"The roads now are a lot harder than it was back then. At that point there were few foreign athletes over here. Those who were here, I knew who they were, we raced often, and we were friends. Three weeks ago the 8k had 400

bucks for the win and like 25 bucks for eighth. Eight Kenyans, a couple Russians, showed up. It was crazy. I was 8th in 23:41. I thought I could be competitive for the win in a 400 dollar race."

"It is really competitive and difficult to make money on the roads. When I came into the sport, it wasn't easy but it was very feasible to do. Now, outside of the US championship races, you are really limited in what you can

make. It's tough. I don't envy guys out there now trying to do it for sure."

Well someone almost said it...if you trained as hard as Malmo,,and if you had more talent..and believe me there are many as he would be the first to admit and drive to thresholds that were greater and believe me there are ..trust me this can be done ...

You need to absolutely need to move your aerobic capacity way up..you know the old timers did this ..sometimes when they did not even know they they were doing it..

Imagine kids that have 50 flat 400 speed legimayely running 80-90- "good " miles a week ..see what you get

10-12 years ago Steve Spence would have been competitive for the win.

Not the point, Hodgie... you shouldn't have to be a Steve Spence at the top of your game to win 400 bucks from a bunch of no-name Africans.

Think again wrote:

Not the point, Hodgie... you shouldn't have to be a Steve Spence at the top of your game to win 400 bucks from a bunch of no-name Africans.

Why not?

DougC wrote:

According to Steve Spence:

The roads now are a lot harder than it was back then. At that point there were few foreign athletes over here. Those who were here, I knew who they were, we raced often, and we were friends. Three weeks ago the 8k had 400

bucks for the win and like 25 bucks for eighth. Eight Kenyans, a couple Russians, showed up. It was crazy. I was 8th in 23:41. I thought I could be competitive for the win in a 400 dollar race."

Interesting. In the days before Steve Spence came into the game, when he was still in grammar school, if you ran 23:41 you'd get 15th place and there was NO prize money for anyone. The winner MAY have received a TV set if he was lucky.

Spence came into the game only after there was prize money, and completely lacks any perspective.

23:41 for eight place is worth 25 bucks.... period.

20 years ago...

No prize money (some appearance money) no foreigners, fairly fast times.

1982 Agawam Mass. 5Miles

August 8

Riverside MA - 5m -

1. Meyer 22:45

2. Hodge 22:47

3. Thomas 23:06

4. Malley 23:11

5. Gregorek 23:17

6. Vin Fleming 23:18

7. Brantly 23:26

8. Beardsley 23:31

9. Andy Palmer 23:46

10. Beaulieu 23:57

Malmo & Hodgie-san thanks for getting into the conversation, your points are well taken. The question still remains, why does the USA suck? If you two guys had the chance right now to make any changes, what would you do to bring the USA back into world greatness as we were once close to back from 1964-1986? What can the top guys change or add to their training or lifestyles at this point to be much better one year from now? Just, where do we go from here & does the USA have a chance anymore...shortly/longly? Thanks jzs

malmo wrote:

Interesting. In the days before Steve Spence came into the game, when he was still in grammar school, if you ran 23:41 you'd get 15th place and there was NO prize money for anyone. The winner MAY have received a TV set if he was lucky.

Spence came into the game only after there was prize money, and completely lacks any perspective.

23:41 for eight place is worth 25 bucks.... period.

I am calling you on that one. Show me results of a "local" road race in which 23:41 is 15th place between the years of '65 and '72.

Spence and I were in grammar school the same years and I recall road racing to be very thin in those days.

In fact while Spence and I were in grammar school 2:14:28 was the American record in the marathon. It then made a huge jump to 2:13:28.

It did not drop to under 2:10 until we were in high school.

Regarding the Agawam race, that was always one of the fastest courses on the scene in those days and one of the most competitive fields. It did pay prize money in the early 80's, I will talk to Greg tomorrow to see if he cashed in that year.(it may have started paying in 83or4) The Agawam race is not a good example of a typical 5 mile local road race. In many of those years it was considered the national championship at that distance.

I can tell you from having a good feel for east coast racing that "local" races have become tougher at the top with the addition of the Kenyans. The Kenyans have many "racing teams" located in the area and they rotate different runners in and out. These are generally "B" rate Kenyans 13:15-13:50 types. Adding to the porblem is that unlike the old days in which there was a comaraderie and a sharing of info among the top runners, with the African contingents rolling into the small races you do not see a lot of this comaraderie between the top local guys ands the Kenyans. It can become irritating if you are a local guy, but at the same time it can be an opportunity. Some race directors really like to have Africans in their races, they don't know any better and think they are all world beaters. Prize money is not the only problem. Many times you just want to get to a good race, get a comped room and a number. Some of the race directors use all of their travel funds on the Africans and the up and coming locals get the smelly end of the stick. The upside is that if you can get to these races and break up the Kenyan parade you come out looking pretty good and you can use it to promote yourself to other race directors who don't know much but know you beat the Africans.

Malmo's got it right..Spences attitude stinks.

The fact is, times have changed and the bar has to be raised. Its not just a matter of looking to win $400 at a local road race, the same appplies on the track in Europe.

Look, if US runners can't beat B class Kenyans at home and refuse to run in Euro races during the season, whats the point in bitching about losing in the World Champs?

The fact is, it would be a miracle to even make the finals.

I have learned to not form much if any judgement from newspaper interviews. Spence very well could have talked for 15 minutes about how having the Africans in the area to raise the bar is good for local runners and then added the off-hand comment about trying to win prize money and then only get the negative comment printed.

Regarding the Kenyans, I like to race them, it was and is fun and helped me as a runner. If you are talented and driven you have more of a chance to "make it" if you race against better runners.

I still challenge malmo's statement about 15th place at 23:41 in a local road race during the years Spence and I were in grammar school.

To say that someone of Spence's ability and history of accomplishment "completely lacks any perspective" is simply wrong. He has viewed the racing world locally, nationally and globally.

Our country needs to convert to the metric system like the rest of the world. It might chnage our luck.

mplatt:

>Regarding the Agawam race, that was always one of the fastest courses on the scene in those days and one of the most competitive fields. It did pay prize money in the early 80's, I will talk to Greg tomorrow to see if he cashed in that year.(it may have started paying in 83or4) The Agawam race is not a good example of a typical 5 mile local road race. In many of those years it was considered the national championship at that distance.<

Agawam was NOT the National Championship in 1982 or 1983. There was NO PRIZE MONEY. I know I was there. Greg & I did receive appearance money and a bonus (not discussed before the race) for our efforts.

The facts are that any race with good prizes will attract top competitors and 23:41 isn't likely to take the big prize today (even in a local competition) any more than it was 20 or 15 or 10 years ago.

Top competitors make intense competition and produce fast times. Some things never change.

mplatt,

I tried to hunt down a bit more info. on the Agawam race, circa early 80's:

Boston Globe

July 31, 1983

ROAD RUNNING / JOE CONCANNON\ KILDUFF GETS MARATHON '84 ROLLING

Author: JOE CONCANNON

Ed Carroll, owner of Riverside Park in Agawam, is a runner who "wanted to give something back" to the sport. What he's given back is the Riverside Twilight 5-Miler, which saw Meyer produce an American record (22:45) last year with Bobby Hodge chasing him (22:47). The course finishes with a lap around the stock car racing oval inside the 6000-seat stadium.

The budget for the Aug. 7 race to lure top runners is $20,000, and the field this year includes Hodge, Bill Rodgers, Bruce Bickford, Nancy Conz and Judi St. Hillaire. Springfield's Ch. 22 is televising the race, which begins at 6 p.m.; Meyer will be a color commentator. Carroll's friendship with running guru Tommy Leonard led to the contacts with the top runners, and Leonard is the race consultant.

"Tommy was really the catalyst," says Carroll. "It started off because I run and the sport's given me a lot. What I wanted to do was sponsor a race that would be meaningful to the people of Western New England. It's shaping up to be a great race, but we just want people to come and have fun."

Hodgie-san wrote:

The facts are that any race with good prizes will attract top competitors and 23:41 isn't likely to take the big prize today (even in a local competition) any more than it was 20 or 15 or 10 years ago.

Top competitors make intense competition and produce fast times. Some things never change.

I agree with most of what you write here but, I disagree with 23:41 being a 15th place effort and not worthy of placing well in a local road race.

You brought up Agawam as if it was analogous to a local race. It is not. Agawam always had a good reputation as a very competitive event and a place to go to run a fast time. In fact the results you showed proved that.

By the way, the Greg I was writing of is Greg Beardsley, not Greg Meyer.

I remember reading about that race. At the time I was in high-school and devouring anything I could about running. I still have a bunch of copies of "Boston Running News" (now "New England Runner") from the period. That race in particular was always loaded in those years. It was always big news in BRN. Definitely not like most other 5 milers in the area.

I seem to recall Meyer won it another year in an even faster time (something like 22:18) but perhaps I'm thinking of someone else.

When I started running again I was sad to see the race was not even there anymore. Why did it get shut down? Sounds like it was a great race. Would have loved to have done it.