What kind of Tempo run?

I think running 1-2 mile intervals at halfm pace is a grand idea. Works on the same basic principles as any interval workout. You are able to cover more total miles at "x" pace than you could reasonably do otherwise. So, while 6 miles at 10k pace is a race...6xmile at 10k pace is a workout. In the same mode of thinking 8-10 x mile at halfm pace is a good workout, while 8-10 miles at halfm pace would be too much of a "race". 8-10 x mile at halfm pace with 1:00 recovery is a great workout, ditto with 4-5 x 2 mile with 2:00 rest. I believe in Dehaven's online log I saw 4x2mile in something like 9:30 w/2min between.

Alan

There is no "good" tempo run. Tempo runs are tailored for YOU and are supposed to be taxing. Say if you run 17:30 for 5k, maybe run 5 miles at 6 minutes a mile.

I have to chime in as agreeing with Malmo that

people are running these too hard. 5+ miles at

1/2 marathon pace is definitely not easy, and

5+ miles at 10k + 10sec/mi is definitely way too

hard to do regularly - the tempo run should not

be your hardest workout of the week!

A good rule of thumb which I use (I think JK suggested

this), is to run at a pace where you can just maintain

a breathing pattern of once every 6 steps (e.g. 3/3

or 4/2) for the entire run. If you find you start

to slip into a 2/2 breathing pattern, then you are

going too fast.

The pace this works out to will vary depending on how

you feel on a given day, but for me generally works

out to about 5s slower than half marathon pace,

or 20-25s slower than 10k pace.

I was going to start a new thread with this, but I think this one is good, so I will bump it back up. My question is about the afore mentioned breathing patterns:

I have noticed no correlation between my ability to run fast vs. another persons given our breathing patter. In a daily training run I breath a lot less hard then others do. Even tempo runs and intervals. Does that mean I am not working hard enough, or am being slowed by something other than my cardio system?

For instance on a 10 mile, hilly steady state, I will be breathing in-audibly for the first 4 miles while others will sound like they are gasping for their last breath, but as soon as the trail goes up hill, I get dropped, while they keep going on strong. Yes my breathing pattern does pickup on the hills, but I still get dropped...

Another thing many of us have experienced is getting passed by the "heavy breather" you know the guy who sounds like he is about to drop over dead, but is still managing to pass you, I don't get it, is he really just more willing to hurt than I am?

There are differences in breathing patterns and I can sympathize with getting passed by the "heavy breather". It sounds like you have an efficient pulmonary system, perhaps even more efficient than your fellow runners; you need to combine that with your heartrate, though, to see if you're not going hard enough in comparison. As for the hills, they are generally a measure of strength to weight ratio so if you're thicker than your fellows, you could expect to be dropped. Do you catch them on the downhill? It may just be a difference in Maximum heart rate.

..why godamnit is 1/2 thon pace for 5 miles bad.....what would you do...what should we do....and i want answers right NOW!!!

Respiratory rate is pretty individual - I know plenty

of runners who breath with a 2/2 pattern all the time

(they just vary the depth of the breathing) and runners

who use a 4/4 pattern when running easy, all the way

up to a 1/1 when sprinting. (I have also had the

experience you describe of being certain that the "heavy

breather" next to me was on the verge of collapse, only to

have him drop me.

Back to the point of this thread however, the lactate

threshold typically occurs right around (typically just

above) the pace where breathing becomes noticeably

harder - what "noticeably harder" means will vary by

individual. This is consistent with the sharp increase in

heart rate that occurs at the lactate threshold as well -

this is the basis of many of the tests used to determine

an individual's lactate threshold. Ultimately however,

both breathing rate and heart rate are second order

symptoms - if you really want to know when you are at

your lactate threshold you need to prick your finger

every few minutes while you are running and do a blood

test (yes people who do this - check out Marius Bakken's

web page for more info on lactate testing).

Respiratory rate just happens to be the easiest thing

to monitor in real time, and has the benefit of reflecting

your current state of fitness, the weather, the terrain

etc..., whereas simply running your 1/2 marathon PR pace

may have you running well above your LT on any given day.

With tempo runs, it's better to err on the side of going

slightly to slow than going to fast - you still get

most of the benefits, while ensuring that you won't have

to worry about being too sore or tired the next day. The

last mile of the tempo run shouldn't feel noticeably

harder than the first or second (they should all feel

somewhat hard)- if it does it means you have been accumulating Lactate faster than your body can clear it

(i.e. you have been running faster than your LT pace).

Save that lactate accumulation for your speedwork.

AVS

Denton, you run your LT under 5 minutes per mile?

Would this include tempo too?

malmo wrote:

If you can do that three times a week your 1/2 PR is crap.

well, that may be true, but I have little trouble rolling 5 mile tempo runs 3 times a week when I'm in marathon prep. that kind of running is only "too hard" if it leaves you ragged and you can't recover in a timely fashion.

My last race was 5.9 miles at 5:47 pace. On a cinder trail.

What tempo pace would this suggest?

I am currently in a mileage building phase. Do you think it would be beneficial to do a relaxed tempo run once a week? I am not racing seriously until next spring probably. I am just concentrating on building up miles and getting a strong base for now, and want to know what others think about the benefit/detriment doing tempos during base training would have.

If I can hold 5:20 pace for 5 miles in a RACE, what pace should my tempo runs be at and for what distance? and how often?

under 5mins per mile...well if one goes by the idea of tempo being 10-15 secs over 10km (ie 15km pace)pace then yes.....I run em with a HR monitor at 85%........

malmo,

what about a 5 miler at 1/2 marathon *effort*? I definately see your point that a 5 miler at your all-time best ideal situation 1/2 marathon pace is a tough workout. But 5 miles at the pace I could run for 1/2 marathon on *that* day (no taper, no competition, training shoes) isn't that bad. Or are you of the position that most "tempo runs" should be closer to marathon pace or so?

I really advocate running a heavy volume of long intervals at 1/2 mar. or 10 mile race pace (e.g. 2x5k or 4x2mile w/ 2 min rest or 8x1 mile with 1 minute rest.)

These workouts don't leave you too sore but they seem to build up your 10 mile-through-marathon endurance and pace-handling abilities bigtime. They also add up to some decent mileage.

Also, if you are trying to run a longer race without a proper base (I know it's not a sound practice), these workouts should get you through it without embarassing yourself too badly.

In a follow up to my last post, I read one of your earlier posts and realized that I'm thinking too much. I'd still be interested in any follow up though.

i talked to a marathoner who ran for athletics west, he said that during the winter they ran 8k-12k tempos every week at about 1/2 marathon pace.

Metricly speaking, 8k @ 10 sec slower than present predicted 10k race pace. Yes, 3 times a week. If you can't handle 3 times a week then you are either training too hard on your recovery days, or eating donuts and bigmacs when you should be eating a perfect amount of complex carbs.

2 x 8k threshold runs + 1 rep session (or 1 AT + 2 rep per week when specific) is also possible.

Again, if it dosen't work then look at your self ... energy out is only as good as energy out.

Ignore the undisciplined disbelievers - they are probably drunk on candy, caffiene, alcohol, starvation diet, or dope.

energy out is only as good as energy IN.

At AW they ran 10-12 miles at MARATHON pace.