Speed vs. Slope

I bet Kenny would have kicked everyone if the whole marathon course was uphill that year. Speaking of Kenny boy, how difficult of a transition was it for him to go from steepler to marathoner? Was he already doing the mileage and long runs? Tom S.

Tom: Ken was one of the hardest trainers around and did fair mileage all along, but mostly was just talented. Not sure if you remember he placed 2nd in the Oly trials in the 10k, when the trials were set up to ignore distacne runners (in Louisiana that year), but the heat prevented his hitting the standard (by not much either), so another runner who had done an earlier qualifier go the trip. He gave so much of his time to helping Lisa that he may have lost a few of his best years. I watched him run 4X1mile at 4:20 followed by a 5min rest and a final mile in 4:20 accelerating and decelerating every 50 meters. He actually did those TM runs because he was living where it was hilly and didn't like doing long runs over hills

JT:

In your recent book, soon to be a standard, you profiled some runners that you have worked with in one way or another. You mentioned that each has taught you something such as Joan Benoit's approach was proof that one doesn't have to race often in order to do well in the big competitions if one's training simulates competitions. What did you learn from Ken Martin? I ask because I do recall that Ken was incredibly versatile, similar to John Gregorek. Very few runners have shown his range of top-flight performances. Tom

jtupper,

This is some great information, which cetainly answers my question. Are these numbers valid across a range of talent?

My final objective is to eventually come up with a method of rating the severity of a course, given its topography. You've mentioned your calculations on the effects of the hills in the handout for the Boston course. I'm curious as to whether you have worked out this problem before. Much appreciated!

Ken showed that you can be a compassionate person, who really cares for others' feelings yet tough as can be in a race. His background reminded me of Pre in some ways. Won't forget a friend. I hadn't been in touch for several years and when he heard of my wife's condition said he was gong to run a 5k in her honor -- he hadn't run in a few years but he went 17-something. One year he sent me 3 tickets to come spend Christmas with him in Santa Fe. Ken was always thinking of what to do next and had some great ideas.

glt The main thing yuo must consider is the differences that exist among individuals. When we had different runners rate comparable speed/grade combinations on the treadmill, some always felt the faster with less grade was easier and others preferred slower steeper grade. So as usual you get stuck with having to accept a scientific approach and go with probability. A friend in VA is currently working on a method of rating courses and I think it is good. What I want to do in addition to what he is dong is to measure VO2 running at a set, steady-state speed on the track (say 80% of max) and then repeat the exact speed over-ground on flat grass. We have done this comparing track and treadmill cost, but this would compare track and grass cost. I've typically just guesstimated that the grass slows you by about 10sec per mile (for trainng purposes that is). Naturally the condition of the grass is a factor as well. We could do the same thing over various terrain, but I think it can be simplified. If you have access to some equipment and are interested email me at danielsj@cortland.edu

This is a very interesting thread - I've been wondering how to adjust my TM workout pace. It seems to me that the 7% figure for wind resistance might be OK for the average size person but shouldn't this scale with the runner's cross-sectional area perpendicular to the velocity vector? So it could be far different for a 5'0" 90 lb. woman and a 6'2" 220 lb man. Also what do you suppose is the cost re VO2 of the increase in body temperature due to the loss of the cooling effect of air on the TM, or does your 7% figure take that into account?

this is a chart I found showing the difference in efforts for running at different grades on a treadmill specifically. Anyway, I looked at some split times for some intervals I did at "5k race pace effort" on a long 10% grade hill by my house, and my times for those equalled my flat 5k race pace almost to the second according to that chart.

Say you can run 12 mph on the flat. At 90 degrees downhill you will reach 125 mph (terminal velocity). For any angle in between, interpolate.