Curious to hear your response marijuolgist...
This guy is so much faster than every other amputee AND a D1 sprinter got slower after becoming an amputee...
...Does he just have that determination to out train any other? How come he is such an anomaly when compared to every other amputee?
Finally, where are you getting all your facts from about prosthetic legs?
the ko wrote:
Curious to hear your response marijuolgist...
This guy is so much faster than every other amputee AND a D1 sprinter got slower after becoming an amputee...
...Does he just have that determination to out train any other? How come he is such an anomaly when compared to every other amputee?
[quote]
Most "elite" amputee athletes are people of mere above-average athletic talents who happen to compete in an obscure forum. Pistorius is an anomoly because he is a truly elite talent who would in all likelihood be a sub-44 candiate if he were able-bodied. He's just a superior talent.
[quote]
Finally, where are you getting all your facts from about prosthetic legs?
A family member may have to get both feet amputated in the near future and I've done a lot of research on prosthetic options, including talking with amputees and prosthesists. It's clear that artificial legs are not as good as the real thing.
...Does he just have that determination to out train any other? How come he is such an anomaly when compared to every other amputee?
Most "elite" amputee athletes are people of mere above-average athletic talents who happen to compete in an obscure forum. Pistorius is an anomoly because he is a truly elite talent who would in all likelihood be a sub-44 candiate if he were able-bodied. He's just a superior talent.
Finally, where are you getting all your facts from about prosthetic legs?
A family member may have to get both feet amputated in the near future and I've done a lot of research on prosthetic options, including talking with amputees and prosthesists. It's clear that artificial legs are not as good as the real thing.
marijuolgist wrote:
A family member may have to get both feet amputated in the near future and I've done a lot of research on prosthetic options, including talking with amputees and prosthesists. It's clear that artificial legs are not as good as the real thing.
I'm sorry to hear that and I completely agree that the prosthetic devices must be a lousy substitute for the real thing in general use.
it's not natural to have prosthetics. it's man made. they should have separate games or events.
I've ranted on this subject before. I wish Pistorius well, but no way he should compete with the able-bodied. For one thing, the rules only permit the limbs to be elevated X amount (12mm? don't recall) by the athlete's "footwear." Hence his prostheses break the (able-bodied) rules right now.
More fundamentally: The technologically-limiting factor for most disabled athletes is the *sound* limb. For most people the prosthetic limb, regardless of how technologically advanced, would not be able to work much more effectively than the natural one, because the resulting asymmetry could make the athlete fall or develop injuries, or simply use a lot of energy to correct rotational forces.
FWIW I suspect that continued development will produce prostheses that will essentially eliminate these problems among "single-leggers." But for a "double-legger" like Pistorius, the technology is already here: enormous energy return for a limb that is (or will be, with continued development) *very much lighter* than a natural limb, as well as longer.
Remember, the leg muscles don't just produce propulsion; they also swing the leg through for the next step. Swinging a lightweight leg--particularly, one that has little weight at the end of the lever--is a tremendous advantage, and one that will only increase with development of new materials.
Also bear in mind that there is no particular theoretical bar to this athlete's donning legs that are six inches longer than his current ones. (Or longer--who knows?) This man could develop a top speed of 50km/hr or faster.
Pistorius is a tremendous athlete, and it's certainly not his "fault" that he is bilaterally disabled. But the solutions to his disability produce an advantage (vis-a-vis able-bodied athletes) that will only increase as technology improves. He doesn't belong in championship able-bodied competition, anymore than the current crop of wheelchair athletes does. (I'm old enough to remember when the idea of a wheelchair dude going faster than an able-bodied person would be laughable. Wheelchairs changed.)
present wrote:
Also bear in mind that there is no particular theoretical bar to this athlete's donning legs that are six inches longer than his current ones. (Or longer--who knows?) This man could develop a top speed of 50km/hr or faster.
It's called balance.
present wrote:
I've ranted on this subject before. I wish Pistorius well, but no way he should compete with the able-bodied. For one thing, the rules only permit the limbs to be elevated X amount (12mm? don't recall) by the athlete's "footwear." Hence his prostheses break the (able-bodied) rules right now.
His prostheses do not break any rules, and their "length" is negated by the fact that he can't extend his ankles (i.e. stand on his toes).
More fundamentally: The technologically-limiting factor for most disabled athletes is the *sound* limb. For most people the prosthetic limb, regardless of how technologically advanced, would not be able to work much more effectively than the natural one, because the resulting asymmetry could make the athlete fall or develop injuries, or simply use a lot of energy to correct rotational forces.
Where do you get this crap? Watch a video of any amputee running and you can clearly see that the prosthetic leg produces a drastically inferior pushoff. It has nothing to do with "asymmetry" and everything to do with the fact that the prosthetic limb is mechanically inferior to the natrual one in every conceivable respect.
FWIW I suspect that continued development will produce prostheses that will essentially eliminate these problems among "single-leggers." But for a "double-legger" like Pistorius, the technology is already here: enormous energy return for a limb that is (or will be, with continued development) *very much lighter* than a natural limb, as well as longer.
The energy return from a prosthetic limb is not "enormous". It's more like "minimal".
Remember, the leg muscles don't just produce propulsion; they also swing the leg through for the next step. Swinging a lightweight leg--particularly, one that has little weight at the end of the lever--is a tremendous advantage, and one that will only increase with development of new materials.
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This passage betrays a serious ignorance of basic human biomechanics. Swing occurs primarily by virtue of elastic recoil, not muscular action. Furthermore, because the athlete can't dorsiflex his ankle during the swing phase, he's forced to waste a ton of energy rotating his hips in order to let his feet clear the ground:
http://www.ounae.com/dotclear/images/Ciencia_y_salud/oscarleg_01.jpghttp://www.piuchepuoi.it/img/pistorius.jpg[quote]
Also bear in mind that there is no particular theoretical bar to this athlete's donning legs that are six inches longer than his current ones. (Or longer--who knows?) This man could develop a top speed of 50km/hr or faster.
Stride length is determined primarly by ground support forces, NOT limb length. Whatever advantage prosthetic limbs may provide in terms of LENGH is utterly negated by their inferior force-generating properties. Additionally, a longer prosthetic leg is more difficult for the athlete to work with.
Oscar Pistorius does not have an advantage. ANY advantage. He runs faster than you, in fact, despite a major DISADVANTAGE. And now he's going to lose his right to compete just because ignorant fcking people who neither know anything about prosthetic technology nor the basic mechanics of human locomotion arbitrarily assuming that he has an advantage without doing any research on the subject whatsoever. It's disgraceful, really.
You are an idiot. They absolutely do return more energy. The special legs he runs with are extremely springy. I dont have any numbers but to say they dont have an exponentially larger energy return is ridiculous. A human leg has next to none. These things I'm assuming are something like 5% which is a lot
a foot wrote:
You are an idiot. They absolutely do return more energy. The special legs he runs with are extremely springy. I dont have any numbers but to say they dont have an exponentially larger energy return is ridiculous. A human leg has next to none. These things I'm assuming are something like 5% which is a lot
A natrual leg is FAR "springier" than even the best prosthesis. Are you not familiar with the spring-mass model of human locamotion? A natural leg stores and releases energy by virtue of the elastic qualities of tendons and ligaments- they stretch like rubber bands to store energy and 'snap' back (recoil) to release it. Furthermore, the natural leg generates additional propulsive force by muscular contraction. The result is that the sound limb is able to produce ground return forces equivalent to 200-300% of impact force. A prosthetic limb is limited to returning LESS than 100% of impact force. This discrepancy can be observed easily just by watching any amputee run- the runner clearly gets far less 'spring' off of the prosthetic leg.
Watch this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03SMfTEk2vMActually you generate more spring in a leg which is standing on the toe and allows the heel to drop down, ie animals such as antelope and horses.
If Oscar jumped down from a height that wouldn't actually break his prosthetic limbs you would expect him to "pogo" back up several inches. If an able bodied athlete jumps off a box, they don't bounce at all.
The main advantage Oscar may have over other disabled athletes is that he is perfectly balanced and never knew any other way of walking or running.
marijuologist, next you are going to tell us that Michael Phelps couldn't swim faster wearing webbed gloves and fins.
SMJO wrote:
If Oscar jumped down from a height that wouldn't actually break his prosthetic limbs you would expect him to "pogo" back up several inches. If an able bodied athlete jumps off a box, they don't bounce at all.
no the amputee would not "pogo" or "bounce" unless he actively extended his knees and hips. the prosthetics don't work like that
marijuologist, next you are going to tell us that Michael Phelps couldn't swim faster wearing webbed gloves and fins.
that's the worst analogy ever
hahaha crippled people are funny
If artificials (i.e. fake) equipment is okay, then why aren't wheelchair athletes deemed the outright winners in road races? Why do they need a special category?
Does anyone remember how "clap skates" allowed everone to break previous records in speed ice skating? Equipment trumping talent? Do we want this to happen in T&F? I say no, and I'm sure the powers that be won't let someone pogo to an official "WR" either.....
