Lydiard style mileage asscention (sp?)

Real training advice is always appreciated on here, by me anyway.

Not so much a Lydiard question but one that I would like answered by people who know (as opposed to someone taking a 5 min break from the hotness thread)

Going back in time I ran 47 min for 15km (1993) mid 30 min for 10km (1996). I have not run a step in at least 4 years but I am thinking about trying to run again. Where should I start and how do you think I can progress, milage wise, given my backround if that even counts anymore it was so long ago.

Thanks to all

As you probably know; you would have never gotten the answer to that question out of Lydiard himself even if he knew enough about HR monitor.

Someone who might be more exercise physiology oriented might chip in and give you all sorts of scientific numbers that sounds perfect. But as a practical coach, my answer to that is; only YOU can answer that. For example, when I do repeats, my heart rate does not go down to 120 like most people would suggest. I feel perfectly fine when it's somewhere around 140 now. Am I pushing myself too hard? Maybe. Do I feel fine about it? Absolutely. I might get more out of it if I wait till my HR goes down to 120... The point is; you need to ask yourself what you feel is "1/2 effort" and check your HR then.

If you absolutely insist getting HR range, I'd say;

1/4 effort: 120~150

1/2 effort: 140~160

3/4 effort: 150~180

Of course, you realize HR is affected by age, weather, among others. If you run 800m at 1/2 effort, your HR would be higher than when you go out and run an hour at 1/2 effort. I'm assuming you're asking about effort chart for marathon conditioning but, then again, it would vary with terrain, weather, time of the day, etc.

Once I wore HR monitor when I was coming back from an injury. I didn't want it higher than 130. No particular reason; I just felt anything beyond 130 might be too quick at that period. I just wore the monitor one day and went for a run and checked what HR correspond to my "feeling" and set my HR monitor accordingly. Someone else much fitter and stronger and younger may be able to get away with 150... Who knows? But it wasn't for me.

ok that link was not meant to be on there.apologies

Nobby, Thank you I appreciate you reply.

Not to sound to dim witted 1/4 60 - 70% ?

1/2 70 - 80 %

3/4 80 - 85%

I have been out for a long time and thought I would try a heart rate monitor to help me re-learn the sensory feedback for the different efforts as I build up.

No at all! In fact, I myself even put it that way when I put together the PPT for Arthur's tour. I think I put 60% for 1/4 effort and 1/2~3/4 effort being 80~90%. So..., yes!

I think you got the right approach; use HR monitor, not to be dictated by it. I think Frank Shorer said the same thing; he wore that and went out for an easy run but HR monitor indicated that he was running too hard. After awhile he got irritated and took it off. He figured he knew himself better than HR monitor. He did tell me, however, that he does use it to slow him down ("...to restrict myself as I get older," he said).

A lot of this stuff is what I am trying to figure out right now. I am just out of college and am trying to figure out how to train myself so I can continue to set PRs. My college system was heavily Lydiard-based and I am sold on it. I just finished "Run With the Best" and will probably model a program for myself starting this summer and then trying to really peak for a few track 5k/10ks next spring.

I have also decided to try a heart rate monitor but only to control myself on really easy days, I am not going to wear it on a "run as a feel" day.

So my question: My highest mileage weeks ever are 61, 58, and 56(2 or 3 times). I was often hurt in college. So based on this, is it at all realistic to think I could peak at 70 miles in a week 4-5 times between the start of my self-made program in late May through the end of April 2008? Or should I just go for 60 and be happy? I know there is no clear yes or no answer but I would appreciate some thoughts.

Are you the guy who started that infamous "Lydiard or Daniels" thread? Or am I thinking about someone else???

It takes some time and effort to handle a full-scale Lydiard program; meaning, 100 miles a week at correct effort. For a younger athlete, in order to incorporate appropriate effort, 60 might be right. That being said, without knowing enough about your background, you might want to take a look at original Lydiard program. He didn't jump anyone to 100MPW first. You need to get used to long running first by going by time rather than distance. 1 hour on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. 1:30 on Tuesdaya and Thursday. 2-hours on weekend and perhaps one day of fartlek... Something like that. People always talk about following the Lydiard program to the tee but they miss out this initial stage. What this means is; you should have one long run a week of upward ot 2-hours. Two more longish days, preferably 1:30 each. And there has to be a couple of days of some effort runs; here, I couldn't really do it as an hour at 3/4 effort, so I went ahead and did long reps of about 3 X 1 mile or 4~5 X 1200m. Maybe you should consider following schedule like that.

Second question is; why 5/10k? What's your basic speed? How fast can you run 800M? Don't just jump to become a road runner (I know you said track...). You should sharpen your speed to the maximum. If you're just out of college, you should maximize your 1500m speed before you move up.

And lastly, don't blame mileage for potential injury. Check your shoes first.

Nobby- thank you for your thoughts. Oh, and I didn't start that thread, I think that was before my days on this website.

I am a little confused. You suggest considering an awful lot of mileage with the two hour long run, hour and a half runs, and the quality days. I can only assume you would suggest that I do ALL of the longer running VERY slowly. I understand the need to work up to mileage and want to look long term, so can you clarify what you mean? Mainly I am wondering how soon someone gets on a program like that. All that running would put me well over my idea of peak mileage of 60 or 70, and if seems you are talking about this training as the very START of a program.

Also, I pick 5k/10k cause I want to. I was all mid-distance in high school with PRs of 1:58 for 800 and 4:30 for 1600, but have lost a lot of desire to compete at 1500/mile. I would be willing to consider a year focusing on the 1500 if that was really what was best for long-term development, however.

And I blame intensity and not mileage for my injuries. My program switched coaches, with the second one being heavily Lydiard. Most of my overuse injuries came during the first coach's tenure, and then more unfortunate stuff during the second's (anemia, a freak ankle injury during a workout).

Spooter:

It sounds like you've got the right approach and attitude. Yes, when you go long, you should run at whatever the pace you can manage and run the whole way comfortably. In other words, if you slow down in the second half or you'd have to sacrifice quality days "cuz you just couldn't run", you'll know you've done too much. Same thing; don't just jump on 1:30 twice a week and 2-hour. Work your way upward. Try 1:30 on weekend and another long one of, say, 1:15~1:20 on Wednesday (instead of two more during the week) and see how you feel. If you have to take it easy on the second or third week, you know it was too much. But then again, don't shy away from trying to go far on weekend. Just get out and run for an hour and turn around and back an hour. If you have to take it easy for two or three days afterward, so be it (I know I'm sort of contradicting here). But these long runs will give you strength.

I'd say, at this point, do a long run on weekend (start with 1:30 and work your way up to 2-hours), one medium long run of 1:15~1:30 on Wednesday, take one day fartek (do it like it's really supposed to over hilly terrain), and take other days 45~60 minutes jog. With this kind of schedule, do you think you'll exceed 60MPW by a lot? Of course, you "work your way up" to this type of schedule; you don't start with it...

By the way, if you're up for it, do EASY jogging in the morning; not necessarily to beef up mileage but for recovery.

One more thing: when I say "quality day", it's not necessarily things like intervals or hard-core repetitions. If you want to do it in a form of reps, start out very generously (go easy). Start out with something like 3 X 800m or 1km, for example. Don't go too fast. LT pace or whatever some people might want to call them, I don't care. Do them more like your 10k pace rather than 5k pace. Actually, if you CAN handle it, it's probably better to do it in a form of what Lydiard would call "time trial". Not the way people think as a race simulation run; but a hard effort "controlled" run (as Dick Brown would say, "Challenging, but in control"). Again, start with, say, 2-miles at your 10 mile pace...something like that. For these "quiality" days, I personally like to do it in a form of a ladder. You start with 2-miles fairly easy; build it up to, say, 5 or 6 miles at the same effort. Then bring the distance down and apply more effort (make it shorter but faster). Remember, the point is NOT to have an impressive workout. The point is how that would be carried onto the next week's workout.

If you really want to fulfill your potential, yes, you need to have a long-term view of training. What you do this year is really for the next year. And it's not what you do this year or next year that counts; but in 3 to 5 years time. You might want to consider doing some 800 or 1500 as well (since you're sill fairly young...I assume). Speed development is crutial; you need to work on your speed (as a sprinter) instead of becoming a "road bum". Do as much hills as you can fit into your program; work on your suppleness and explosive power--all along, NOT sacrificing your aerobic development.

In Peter Snell's book "No Bugles, No Drums", Peter mentions his mileage a little.

At one point he goes from having about a month off to 100 mile weeks in about 3 weeks. He goes from a month off, to doing a 22 mile long run twice a week.

Will this work for you? Maybe, maybe not. It really depends on the individual. If you've never done that kind of mileage before (Peter obviously had)trying to do what Snell did would probably injure you.

My point is, you ask "What is Lydiard style mileage asscention", when even Lydiard himself probably couldn't answer that from your initial post. Even he'd need to know your background, you strengths and weaknesses, proir injuries, ect., to determine an appropriate mileage schedule.

In some of Lydiard's books, he has training schedules. ALL of them start out with doing easy mileage for as long as possible. Start there and, as suggested by others in this thread, go by listening to your body. You know better than we do and better than some schedule Lydiard made up 30 or 40 years ago...when pressured by a publishing company to include training schedules just to boost sales.

Well said. Very well said indeed!

I started reading this thread because I have been wondering a lot of the same questions. The advice has been so well thought out, and done with care, that I thought I would ask for some advice about this topic as well. I hope I am not being overwhelming with my post.

I am 30 years old 6 feet tall and weigh around 148 pounds. I am a former ODP runner and have since moved on to start a career in teaching but still feel the need to train and race at a "high level". My goal is to run under 14:00 minutes for 5K and possibly break 4 minutes in the Mile. My lifetime goal has always been to run in the Olympic Trials. I would love nothing more than to run at least the Olympic Trials "B" standard which for 5K will probably be around 13:45. I am writing this because I have been training myself and running alone for the last 3 years now and have a lot of questions and concerns about what I should and need to be doing.

My background: High School = very low mileage only when in season (20 miles a week) but would race all out and get in shape this way. Did better with short distances: (1994 Senior Year) 5K Cross Country = 16:25, Track 800 = 1:56, Track Mile = 4:26;

College (1995-2000): 8k Cross Country = 24:50, Track Indoor Mile = 4:08, Track Indoor 3K = 8:32, Outdoor Track 1500 = 3:50, Track 5K = 14:50; Typical college training for me was never run in the off season but in-season would run about 60 miles a week with lots of speed session even during cross country (4 x 400 in 55 with full rest between).

Post College ODP (2000-2002): Track 1500 = 3:48, Indoor 3K = 8:13, Outdoor Track 5K = 14:18. Typical training weeks included a variety of speed sessions and all other "recovery run days" averaged around 6:00-6:15 per mile pace. The first 6 months in the program I did about 75 miles a week and the the next several months I did about 90 miles week. To be honest I never felt good. I always had a lot of little pains and aches that would flare up. Lots of hip and glute pains along with calf tightness. Injury and depression is mainly why I left the program.

Since leaving, I have trained myself and have run lots of road 5K's to make a little money and still feel connected to the sport, but had an injury in my post tibialis tendon that sidelined me for about a year (all of 2005). I have now been running again for a year (2006 - present) and have been able to stay injury free with the exception of a few minor aches and pains. I have raced very little this past year in hopes that I can do it right this time and do the necessary training to allow me to hit my full potential. I would love nothing more than to get any advice on what kind of training I should be focusing on leading up to this Spring where I would like to race on the track again. I have currently been running about 85-100 miles a week. S = 1 hour 30-45 minutes or about 14-16 miles, M = 4 am 8 pm (hilly), T = 4 am 9 pm, W = 4 am 10 pm with a 6 mile tempo, TH = 4 am 8 pm, F = 4 am 10 pm (hilly), Sat = 10 am with 3 - 4 miles at faster tempo pace. I work in the morning's until Noon so I am able to do more mileage in the pm. I typically run 6:30 per mile pace on all my runs. This is what I call my base phase???? Any thoughts? I know this is a big question to ask but thought someone might be willing to help me out. Running is all I think about and I am willing to do whatever it takes for me to accomplish my goals.

I question my base phase all the time and wonder if I should be doing more mileage, more speed, more hills, etc.. I also wonder what my next step should be as I now am transitioning into some speed work before I start racing in the next 6 weeks. My last workout was 5 days ago and I did 3 x 1 mile in 4:38 with 2 minutes rest between?

Thanks

Two questions come to mind. I've re-read your post three times to make sure you didn't answer them so I really hope I'm not making you repeat yourself.

How long have you been in your base phase? And you mentioned never feeling good when you were with the ODP (and I did manage to figure out what that was.) How does this feel to you right now?

PS,

I assume that you want to peak for the mid to later part of outdoor track season, but it would be better to know for sure.

After taking several months off (post tib and possible stress fracture)then trying to run to quickly causing more pain I basically had an entire year of on and off poor running. Finally, about 15 months ago (January 06) I was able to start running everyday pain free. I started with a mile a day slow and evebtually worked my way to about 60 miles a week after 3-4 months. I did a few road races and cross country races over the summer and fall to make sure mentally that this is what I still wanted to do. After a race in late November I decided that I would invest all of my efforts into running. I told myself that this time I would do it right and actually build a base and follow a "Lydiard style" approach. So starting December '06 (3 1/2 months ago) I started keeping a log and tried putting in as many miles as I felt I could. I didn't worry about the speed of my runs I just ran twice a day usually 6 days a week. I was already in good shape (avg. 65-70 miles a week) so I just started running 80+ the first week in December. The hard part is that I live in Michigan and this winter has been one of the coldest and snowiest in history. Anyway, I was so proud of myself for sticking to the plan and avg. about 85-90 miles a week with a high of 100 miles.

You asked how I fee. After some big mile weeks, I now feel as if 80 miles a week is easy to run which used to be way to much for me to handle. You are right on in that I want to peak for late track season early summer races. I at least want to hit sub 14 this summer so I have a chance at building for another year and getting the "B" standard the following summer. I am confused as to what I should do know. Should I back off the mileage and focus a little more on intensity? Or will I hinder my future development for the following year?

Thanks again,

The last time I was working with Arthur directly, which I believe was 1999, at about the stage you're in he had me start with a couple of hill sessions a week and a time trial. The trial was generally in the 2-3 mile range, though I believe there was one or two at a mile and a half.

The hill sessions were nothing spectacular, we don't have much here in the line of hills. But I found one that is about 500 yards long and he had me doing about 35-45 minutes on it both times. By the way, I was 46 at the time so you might want to adjust how much and how long you do for your age.

If you want a description of the "classic" Lydiard hill session just say so. Otherwise I'll reckon that you've read or heard about how it works. There was a thread about it here a few weeks back.

I did that for about a month and then went on to some fairly standard repetition work. But the one constant through all of this were the time trials. That's a feature of Lydiard training that you don't see used as much in any other approach I can think of.

So if you were to go the classic route, you'd do a couple of hill sessions a week and a time trial and when you were done with that you'd move on to some interval sessions. There's nothing fancy or complex about the intervals. Arthur always thought that was the least important part of the plan. The mile reps you did would be fine, so would a session like 6 x 800. As you get closer to when you're going to race seriously you might want to go with shorter faster reps, 200-300-400. Generally you'd have a full recovery with the shorter reps. You also could beging to have a day each week when you do some "fast, relaxed. striding," say 10 x 80's-100's.

I would recommend keeping that long run in the mix. As you get closer to racing season you might want to go with the 90 minute version rather than the 105 minute version.

PS, again. No you won't hinder next year's development by moving to other forms of training this year. All of Lydiard's original guys seem to agree that you can only get so much benefit from any particualr kind of training and once you've gotten it you should do something else.

What you want to do is work through the cycle and then start it over, perhaps with a bit of an increase in either volume or intensity. E.g. in your case, maybe when I got back to the distance phase I'd stretch that 90-105 minute run to 105-120. But I wouldn't do that now as I move on to another phase.

I wanted to see what HRE would have to say... "Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God!"

You remind me exactly like myself 20 years ago (sorry to say...). I was up around 90~100 miles a week and feeling pretty strong. Did my runs around 6/mile pace, had to slow down to 6:40 pace for my weekend long runs... But my times weren't necessarily coming down (1500 and 5000). Upon studying my program, what Lydiard told me was "Do more repetitions." Also when I asked John Robinson, one of Arthur's Boys, he got his "Running with Lydiard" book out and showed me the schedule and said, "You've done this part (conditioning); now you need to move on to the next phase..."

You seem to have done plenty of "base" work now. If you want to peak, say, the end of June, you have about 12~14 weeks now. That means you should be doing Lydiard's Hill Training NOW. What makes you think you need to "back off"? And what makes you think, if you work on quality, you would "hinder your future development"? Quality workouts don't hinder your future development; doing them at wrong intensity, wrong volume, at the wrong time MIGHT. In fact, with almost-4-minute-mile background and your hope to make Olympic Trial standard in 5000m, you might want to consider sharpening up more for the mile first. I said this before so just to make clear; I don't necessarily believe in running shourter races for longer races all the time. I didn't buy the idea of Stember running 800 for a season or two for 1500m in the future. On the contrary, I thought he should have tried 5000. But I noticed in more cases than not, people like to try 5/10k simply because they are more convenient (more opportunity including road races) and they tend to neglect speed (again to make things clear; when I say "speed" on behalf of Lydiard school, it's "sprinting speed" not necessarily "anaerobic speed". You can work on it without having to go through classic intervals such as 12X400).

A couple of suggestions, moving forward; your total mileage sounds very solid but, when you take a look at your program and considering your training speed (6:30 pace), you are "only" running a little over an hour during the week. For 5000m, I would try to push the weekend run to closer to 2-hours and at least one more around 1:30 during the mid-week. Your comment about "nagging pain" worries me a bit and am tempted to tell you to slow down a bit. At least for those longer runs, try to stay closer to 7-minute-pace??? You seem to mix plenty of hills but, if you can, run on trials or cross country courses. All those running on the road beat up your legs. Running on uneven terrain not only rejuvenate (spelling?) your legs, but also strengthen otherwise underdeveloped muscles in your legs.

Moving forward for 2008 season, try 2-cycle program. This means you need to move forward with "other" parts of the Lydiard program (as described by HRE) and, after the summer racing season, moving on to another build-up phase. Pick some good cross country races or road races in the fall and train for them. I would say, for a 5000 man, work your way up to a half marathon distance. Depending on the timing, try a few indoor races as well (a mile or as short as 800m). Then move on to the next and final (for 2008 season) cycle. This way, you'll have 2 cycles under your belt before you try the "final" cycle. By then, you should know the program and know yourself. You should lay out a weekly chart leading up to 2008 outdoor season and fill in what you should be doing for each week (build-up, hills, reps, etc.). I try to have this made for about 1.5~2 year period for my athletes so we'll know what we'll be doing throughout the season. Don't just stay at the conditioning phase. All the other aspect of training are all "conditioning" your body. You need EVERYTHING. You don't eat a cake half-cooked.

For hill training, seek some advice from Glen McCarthy or Hotlanta Master. They know what they're talking about. HRe..., well, you'll have to be careful what he means by "skipping"! ;o) Just kidding!