Paavo Distance Training

Colby Lowe...end of discussion.

Yeah, where can you get some examples of Paavo training? (i.e. the workouts and when they fall) their intensities, timing, rest, etc...

Johnny Rotten wrote:

Where can a guy actually find info on Paavo? I have a runner who's been to one of their camps (before moving to our town) and some knowledge of this program may explain some of her quirks to me.

Asking what elite's use PAAVO is like asking what elite's currently use York's Newton training or what elite's currently follow Lydiard by the book. PAAVO is a system for high schoolers. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, there have been many successful high schoolers who have gone on to do NOTHING in college or afterwards regardless of how they trained in high school. Sometimes a kid will train extremely hard in high school and then lose focus and/or not improve in college. It happens. PAAVO or not.

I've critiqued this program on other threads and I'll do it again for the new listeners.

There have been both Team and Individual State Champions from Indiana (a SINGLE CLASS system). So, as far as HIGH SCHOOL success goes it does what it is supposed to do...lead to high school success.

The PAAVO coaching clinics and running camps basically have one purpose (well other than making money): Motivate coaches and runners to become successful using a the PAAVO approach.

The system works because it gets you in peak shape in a short amount of time. In 2-3 years you'll be faster because of PAAVO than with any other system. Now, what happens after that 2-3 year window may be up for debate. Because of the high intensity nature of the program you will physiologically improve in two key areas very quickly: Vo2max and Lactate Tolerance.

As far as my times go, keep in mind the 5k was cross-country, not track. 15:53 5k XC would be worth like 15:20-30 on the road or something like that. We run real cross-country in Indiana.

As for my experience, I worked up to 80+ miles a week during the summer and 12-14 mile long runs so the endurance was there. I worked hard on improving my mile time for 2 years and got down to 4:27. Something went wrong (anemia maybe? never really sure) and I switched to the 3200m and improved that for 2 years. Most of my junior and senior year I ran the 1600, 800, and 3200 in most meets. So that leads me to believe that the program is good for peak development for 2-3 years.

If you want specifics of the program or specifics of what I did just search the forums. There's a pretty detailed explanation out there. Basically a lot of workouts, 3-4 interval workouts plus a race. Two Interval workouts that weren't that difficult because of the long rest involved and one hard ass workout that made you taste death..:) I have run PRS since then and converted to the marathon with some success so the system isn't the runner killer everyone makes it out to be. One bad side effect that I've noticed is that you learn to hate interval workouts...which is why I can't stand them now.

Alan

Also...I've never been injured. The guys on my high school team were also never injured in 4 years.

Alan

I used the Paavo training program in high school and went to the West camp 3 times and Florida camp 2 times. It was wonderful going to a camp with other kids that were obsessed with running fast instead of other camps I went to where kids only went to meet girls and hang out while running mediocre times.

My progression in the 1600:

8th grade- 5:05

9th grade- 4:30

10th grade- 4:20

11th grade- 4:11

12th grade- 4:08/9

My progression in the 3200:

11th grade- 9:13

12th grade- 8:53

I was fortunate enough to have only been injured once in high school. College has been a different story with IT band issues, which has unfortunately struck again. The Paavo system may not be for everyone, just as any other program might not be right for other runners. The idea is to find what’s right for you. Obviously, I believe, Paavo was right for me in high school and I was fortunate enough that my coach discovered the program when I became a frosh. Good luck finding what’s right for you, but please don’t blow off the Paavo system at first sight.

Spooner (PA runner)

It is likely that the Paavo program in high school is what is causing your problems now. This is typical of Paavo runners who don't develop their aerobic systems appropriately.

wicked stoked wrote:

It is likely that the Paavo program in high school is what is causing your problems now. This is typical of Paavo runners who don't develop their aerobic systems appropriately.

I suppose 70-80 miles a week and 12-14 mile long runs doesn't develop the aerobic systems? Correlation does not always equal Causation. So, you can't say someone's current injury problems are the cause of something he did 4 years ago. Runners get injured all the time. Is it the body's fault or the program's fault? Running injuries are more common among top athletes in peak shape...and it just so happens that the nature of the PAAVO training philosophy is hard training to reach peak shape. I don't see anyone bashing Newton's training at York.

Alan

alan.....it's not that the aerobic system wasn't developed, it's more that the highly intense program "broke down" the aerobic system.

For the previous poster seeking the ins and outs of the PAAVO system:

Now, there are likely graphs and charts dictating how you progress and what you should run based on regression and prediction formulas. I don't know. You'd have to go to the clinics for that. This is how the system was run in my high school:

June through August: Ultimate goal of 1000 miles

June: easy running

July/August:

-twice weekly PPM (pace per mile), hard even paced efforts

-start at 2 miles work way up to 10 miles if you can

-freshman year I got up to 5 miles, sophomore 8 miles, junior year we skipped them, senior year went to camp and ran a 10mile PPM once I got home from camp

-Tues: short ppm; Thur: long ppm (short +1); Sat: 1 mile for time; Sun: Long Run

-I believe this gets kids to learn pacing and to run an even pace.

Sept/October:

-Slow Intervals replace PPMs. There's a chart that shows how many you start out with and at what speed base on your PPMs

-Basically 400s-800s at race pace or faster. I was running 2:35-40 800s on the grass and racing 16:30s (5:20). 4min jog after each, 8min jog after each set. Long rests. Long but not overly taxing workout.

-Sun: Long Run, Mon: Slow Intervals (8x800), Wednesday: Race, Fri: Slow Intervals (6x800)

-PACE Intervals. Started 2-4 weeks into season. Again, pace and number determined by some chart on Slow Intervals above. Start out with 200s, then 400s, 800s, 1200s, 1600s...I've seen some people (one person) go up to 3200 (I knew of a state champ who set a PR in practice, then won state the next week). Speed was around 1600 pace for the short stuff and bit slower for the longer stuff. As a 4:27 guy I was doing 200s in :33, 400s in :66-68, 800s in 2:12-20, 1200s in 3:25-30, 1600s in 4:40. 2-3 miles worth. Also very important: STANDING REST until HR under 120. twice distance jog after each set of a mile.

-Sun: Slow Intervals (8x800) in place of long run; Mon: Pace Intervals; Wed: Race; Friday: Slow Intervals (6x800)

-The actual days may be a little off as the memory fades, but there was always a time when we were doing back to back workout days.

So as far as the benefits go:

1. PPMS: learn pacing, team tactics

2. Slow Intervals: learn race pace

3. Pace Intervals: lactic acid, learn how to race hard while legs feel like they are going to fall off.

4. Fast Intervals: I only did this a few times. They were added onto the end of a Pace session or sometimes on their own as yet another small workout. 100s or 200s maybe once or twice a 400 near all out (:26-28 rolling start 200s, :60 400s). Only 800-1600m worth. I can remember one week in which 5 out of 7 days was some kind of workout.

"broke down" the aerobic system?..........Come on....where did you get that from?? What physiology book or manual did you read that in? You can do better than this can't you?

ye sbroke down the aerobic system. Highly intense running can break down what the aerobic system built up. Ex: it can destroy mitochondria. Another example is too much intense training can shift the body into converting more of the pyruvate into lactate instead of acetyl- CoA.

Basically, too much intense work will make it where you can not used the aerobic system that you built up.

knowingly wrote:

ye sbroke down the aerobic system. Highly intense running can break down what the aerobic system built up. Ex: it can destroy mitochondria. Another example is too much intense training can shift the body into converting more of the pyruvate into lactate instead of acetyl- CoA.

Basically, too much intense work will make it where you can not used the aerobic system that you built up.

And like anything else this can be changed. Take a runner who has been doing PAAVO for four years and put them on a more aerobic based program and this "broke down" aerobic system as you call it can be changed. Like Colin Powell said, "If you break it, you have to fix it".

Interestingly enough, I was on a PAAVO based program my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years in college as well as all 4 years in high school. Since that time I've reversed course and switched to a highly high-end aerobic schedule and have the opposite problem. I now have a highly developed aerobic system and an underdeveloped anaerobic system.

Alan

I ran Paavo for 3 years in high school. I definately did not like this program. I thought one of the major problems was A that it did not really build much team unity. Every day you are running a certain pace and it doesn't give a lot of room for team building. I also did not like the fact that I didn't need a coach to run Paavo because everything is laid out from day 1. It doesn't allow for someone to be tired or worn out or anything like that and need an easy day. Overall when I ran Paavo I improved for about a year and a half then I had extreme burnout which I was told was "not physically possible, it was all mental." I took time off started training under Daniels and improved steadily. I ended up a 3 time All American in college doing Daniels training enjoying running. I feel like if I had continued using Paavo then I would have hated running. Also from what I have learned about Paavo the above training is not exactly as Mr. Sellars has it worked out.

Also it is my personal opinion that the entire system is set up to make money. I guess you could look at it like I have an axe to grind but I think if Paavo was a good program then it wouldn't have so many people that had an extreme hate for it. I don't see people feel like this towards lydiard or daniels.

Also when talking about Newton I think most people on here would agree that he gets what he can out of his high schoolers to have his teams be good but that he doesn't prepare them for long term success. There are not many things that make me madder than a high school coach that wears out kids so that they can have success at coaching. Also with Newton who couldn't have 100 guys on his team run them to death have 5 guys come out that are good.

Simply put: High School coaches aren't there to make you a better college runner. They are there to make you a better high school runner.

We had 7 guys on our team, school of 400, no one got hurt in 4 years.

Alan

So you are telling me that a high school coach should not care about the athletes and their future. If that is your opinion on what a high school coach is then you have just proven the problems with Paavo. A high school coach is someone who should prepare you for college. A college coach is someone who should prepare you for after college if that is your desire. I am a high school coach and I would never put my own success in front of the athletes long term success. To me it is a lot more satisfying seeing someone succeed down the road then right here and now. In high school someone might run 15:00 for 5k and be a stud in college a stud is someone who can run under 14. I would rather my athlete run 16:00 in high school and 13:55 in college.

Former Paavo Runner wrote:

Also it is my personal opinion that the entire system is set up to make money. I guess you could look at it like I have an axe to grind but I think if Paavo was a good program then it wouldn't have so many people that had an extreme hate for it. I don't see people feel like this towards lydiard or daniels.

I agree 100%

Former Paavo Runner wrote: Also it is my personal opinion that the entire system is set up to make money. I guess you could look at it like I have an axe to grind but I think if Paavo was a good program then it wouldn't have so many people that had an extreme hate for it. I don't see people feel like this towards lydiard or daniels.

I also agree 100%. Why? You can buy books on Daniels, Lydiard, etc. but where are there any books on Paavo??? Only if you go to their semiars do you get any information.

From my perspective it just seems like a kind of New Secret Super Training Method that isn't all that super or new.

Have you pondered the idea that publishing a book like this would be a) very difficult and b) really not worth it for him. He wants kids to come to his camps and coaches to come to his seminars. So what? He’s trying to make a living off of this and trust me he’s no millionaire (I know, the camp starts at his house). I found his camps to be one of the best experiences of my running career (traveling out west, camping, and running in very some of the most interesting places). Why read a book when I could learn and train the Paavo way under the man who created the system? I could ask him direct questions and get direct answers. Personally, I preferred learning the system this way better than any other way.

A coach's primary goal is to make the most of the athlete. a coach's secondary goal is make sure they are ready for the next step. If a coach's #1 goal was to prepare the athlete for college then why race at all? Why not just put in nothing but aerobic miles for 4 years. What base!!!

Alan