JIM RYUNS STORY!!!! 5:30 MILE TO 4:10 MILE

I meant to say that Timmons would have stayed at Wichita East and coached your dad for "his" senior year. Not "your" senior year. (Sorry for the typo.)

Mr. Daniels. What training effect are you trying to get from 50x400 below threshold? Are you recommending that runners do a high number of intervals below threshold? What would the rest interval be? Wouldn't the athlete be far better off just running continuously below threshold?

As for the 1972 season, Ryun's performances in the weeks following the Olympics were mediocre. If he was in top form, something was preventing him from running at that level.

Living in the past-First, post Olympics 1972, dad freely admits he felt like his will to compete was absolutely gone. Think about it-your life goal is to win the Olympic gold, you've peaked nicely, you're ready to go. And then you get knocked to the track, Olympic officials admit to you that they probably could and should reinstate you and then tell you to come back in 4 years and try again. Dad knew 1972 was his last Olympics. My guess is he was a little depressed after Munich. You try stepping to the starting line in the weeks following something like that. I'll bet the big question running through your mind would be: What's the point? So, if you want to answer the question how fit and prepared was Jim Ryun before the 1972 Olympics, look at his races/training prior to the games.

Secondly, Bob Timmons is a great guy, but keep in mind the man was a Marine drill sargeant. He demanded the best from all his athletes. Yeah, maybe his programs were a little bit of a machine (either you made it or you didn't, but the program wasn't changing), but he had some great successes with athletes other than Jim Ryun. Unless I am wrong, there a few other successful programs out there right now under coaches that are shades of Bob Timmons.

Living in the Past-Forgot to answer your question about dad's inconsistency in 1971-1972. Honestly, to this day he cannot really answer it. Like I said in a previous post, I think some of it was linked to his mono in 1968. He'd have up and down days of training and racing and then start thinking about it, which then begins a vicious cycle that's hard to get out of. At that point I think he was even wondering which Jim Ryun was going to show up at the starting line. That's why the 72 Oly Trials were such a turning point for him. He won every round of the 800 (sans the final, of course) as well as his 1500m prelim and semi and then the final. He had turned the corner at that point.

I'll see if I can find his 1972 training journal and post some of his workouts and races prior to the 72 Olympics.

Drew --

Have you, Ned, or anyone else converted the logs to digital form (either through scanner or typing them out)?

Kevin

Drew, again thanks for your post. I think that what you and I are saying is very consistent, just flipsides of the same coin. As I said at the beginning, your dad is my favorite miler ever. I have the greatest respect for him and stand in awe of his talent. At the same time, I can't help but being a bit wistful at his failure to achieve his ultimate potential. With the kind of coaching that he deserved, your dad would have set a world record that Sebastian Coe would not have been able to break.

As for Timmons having a successful program at KU, that was due to his ability to recruit great athletes. After all, thanks to your dad, Timmons was a celebrity, which made it easier to recruit top high school athletes. He would have your father personally telephone top high school milers. When Reed Fischer set the Texas high school mile record of 4:05.7, he got a call from your dad about going to KU (he went to UT instead). Timmons reminds me of Barry Switzer, the former head football coach at Oklahoma. Switzer was a genius at recruiting, but his championship teams had far more to do with the amazing talent than with the quality of the coaching.

Drew, thanks for your input! I ran against your dad for 4 years and enjoyed it very much. I thought that the video,"Jim Ryun,America's Greatest Miler" was very well done, what is your take on the video?

love the input from drewr - fascinating

living in the past - you have a lot of gaul, you are telling jim ryun's son stuff about his dad like he wouldn't know these things, or you would know them better

Actually, this is for the original poster and whoever else is interested in reading about Ryun's career. I think any discussion about his career would have to include the effect of his coach, which is ambiguous at best. If I didn't raise these issues, no one else would have here. Drew is kind enough to reply and to correct my factual errors.

I asked Drew a question about his father's inconsistency from week to week in 1971 and 1972, which apparently not even he or the man himself can fully explain. But that's also a key part of the Jim Ryun story. Drew obviously knows this stuff far better than I do, and he is very generous to particpate on this thread.

Living in the past wrote:

As for Timmons having a successful program at KU, that was due to his ability to recruit great athletes. After all, thanks to your dad, Timmons was a celebrity, which made it easier to recruit top high school athletes. He would have your father personally telephone top high school milers. When Reed Fischer set the Texas high school mile record of 4:05.7, he got a call from your dad about going to KU (he went to UT instead). Timmons reminds me of Barry Switzer, the former head football coach at Oklahoma. Switzer was a genius at recruiting, but his championship teams had far more to do with the amazing talent than with the quality of the coaching.

Winning national championships in track (and football, and swimming, and cross country, and, and, and) ALWAYS has more to do with recruiting great athletes than it does developing 2nd tier ones into superstars. The hardest work required of any college coach, even the great "developers" is still recruiting. You speak as if Timmy just had to show up with Ryun's list of accomplishments in order to land a guy. Of course reputation helps, as it does with any powerhouse program, but to diminish the national and conference championships the Jayhawks won under Timmons because it was "just" about recruiting is to not understand how college athletics work.

I'm saying that Timmons was great at recruiting and that having Ryun call up high school milers on the telephone was a great recruiting tool. And as you say, recruiting great athletes is how you win championships in the NCAA.

But this is about Jim Ryun's career. My point is that Timmons burned him out at an early age. Does anyone dispute that?

I used to look at some samples of the training Timmons had JR doing and was in awe of it. Then I had a phase where I thought it was absolutely crazy to push a high school kid like that. Then I started thinking that in the years after Ryun, Danielson, Liquori, and probably Lindgren all "failed," in many people's minds to live up to their potential, we entered an era of extreme caution in terms of ceveloping young runners hoping that we might sacrafice a few spectacular high school performances for greater success down the road. But it's never happened in track.

So like you, I'm tempted to ask what would have become of Jim Ryun if he'd had a coach like, say, Lydiard or Bowerman, I also think that you have to credit Timmons for his role in developing the guy who arguably was the most exciting athlete in US track in the second half of the 20th century.

And, after all these years, I still feel a bit angry that the IOC would not advance Ryun to the next round.

Living in the past wrote:

Actually, this is for the original poster and whoever else is interested in reading about Ryun's career. I think any discussion about his career would have to include the effect of his coach, which is ambiguous at best. If I didn't raise these issues, no one else would have here. Drew is kind enough to reply and to correct my factual errors...

Fuzzy on the past, maybe if you would have coached Ryun then he might have reached his potential? You must remember that the 60's and early 70's were before the runnign boom and the LSD craze. Everyone of any merit ran multiple intervals and not nearly as much base distance running as in more recent history. My HS coach ran for Timmons around the same time and our high school workouts were similar to Ryuns, just not as fast or as many. We ran track workout 4 to 5 days each week. Were we overtrained? Who knows. I do know that when we went to the starting line on Saturday we knew that we had worked harder than all other competitors,

Would Jim have run faster if he would have waited to "peak" at the optimal age of 27 or 28? M

You are being incredibly unfair to Mr. Timmons. He is a great man & has done a ton for the sport. He coached several exceptional runners at Wichita East, many state champion teams in both track & cross country. & more than one of his high school athletes went on to break 4(how many others can say that?). To this day he continues to contribute to the sport.

I think you've hit on one of the huge problems with athletics, as the Brits call it, in the US. So much of our "development" happens in our collegiate system. Yet we have consistently had many of our successful programs run by coaches who were great at recruiting but not really good at developing their athletes.

[quote]Wyco Loco wrote:& more than one of his high school athletes went on to break 4(how many others can say that?).[quote]

oh, & he did it in the 50's & 60's

Living in the past wrote:

At the same time, I can't help but being a bit wistful at his failure to achieve his ultimate potential. With the kind of coaching that he deserved, your dad would have set a world record that Sebastian Coe would not have been able to break.

Not necessarily. Less intense training, with a longer term view, might have resulted in a longer career with an Olympic Gold Medal, but it may not have resulted in running much faster than 3:51.1

The intensity of workouts may have just brought Jim Ryun to his peak earlier...

I may be unfair to Timmons, but I still think he took the greatest middle-distance talent this country has ever known and burned him out at the age of 21. Timmons was great at getting short-term results. How many of his athletes had long, successful careers? If you think Ryun's high school mile record was more important than Ryun reaching his ultimate potential, then you're right that Timmons did a great job on Ryun.

Living in the past wrote:

I may be unfair to Timmons, but I still think he took the greatest middle-distance talent this country has ever known and burned him out at the age of 21. Timmons was great at getting short-term results. How many of his athletes had long, successful careers? If you think Ryun's high school mile record was more important than Ryun reaching his ultimate potential, then you're right that Timmons did a great job on Ryun.

Or, he took Ryun and trained him to be the fastest miler of his time... That indicates that Jim may have indeed reached his "potential". There is no doubt that different training could have extended his career, but there is no guarantee he would have run much faster.