For a 2:09 runner (4:55m/m) 5:30 pace is not "really fast". Don't relate the running paces of an elite back to yourself. At M+35 (marathon pace PLUS 35 secs per mile), for him this is no more than steady fat-burning pace. Even at altitude. Blood lactate would be <2.0mM, and HR no higher than 82-85% HRmax.
I run two weeks hard followed by one week hard. If I can't run hard, I take the day off. Why would anyone practice running slow? Running slow does not require practice. Almost anyone can do it.
stupidest statement in a long time... then you know nothing about training and the aerobic system... try reading lydiard, daniels, and observing what the kenyans do... see some of the threads abovefor guys who can run in a marathon in 2:07 they are doing many of their easy runs around 6 to 7 min/mile pace... so you can say what you want but it doesn't hold any water... the guys who are running slow are beating your ass
Fat Boy wrote:
I run two weeks hard followed by one week hard. If I can't run hard, I take the day off. Why would anyone practice running slow? Running slow does not require practice. Almost anyone can do it.
Well trained sub 2:20 marathoners I have tested are <1.0mmol and < 80% HRmax at marathon pace plus 35 seconds. The altitude would have little effect because marathon pace would be slower anyway. The stress in running at this speed is largely mechanical rather than biochemical.
Great thread. Great insights.
Makes me think the corollary argument might be:
"Why aren't the Kenyans any good at baseball ? Why are the Carribbean nations always beating Africans out for the top dollar baseball contracts."
The East African nations have maybe soccer, and running, and not much else in the way of diversions.
I think it truly is cultural.
* school busses, or running 10k am / 10 k pm (would you send your kids thru the gauntlet of todays freaks & molesters to run to school ? no way!)
* high fructose corn syrup, or farm fresh diet
* running running & more running, or soccer t-ball girl scouts boy scouts hockey football basketball
* running & farming on foot all day, or playstation, tv & internet
As a runner I've learned from my own experience that it's the little things, and they all add up. The above "little things" are not so minor.
Lastly, if the sub-2:08 marathoners are training their recovery runs and easy days at race pace + nearly FOUR MINUTES per mile, I am going WAAAY too fast on mine. Woopsie. Well, also, I'm doing a fraction of the mileage volume too, so that is a factor, but I have tried to slow down on those runs this year and I think I will do so even more. I'm within 60-90 seconds.
bump
Well, you make another good point about top athletes and their choices in sport per culture. Potential top Kenyan runners aren't being roped into youth soccer, lacrosse, baseball, basketball, etc. like they are here. Who knows how many potential top runners are riding some pro sports bench for 800K/year? I bet Ichiro would have been a high level middle distance runner if he chose running early on. Richard Hamilton from the Pistons, with that lithe frame, apparently runs a sub-5 on hoops "training." In Kenya, it is run or don't run, so they have all of their best athletes as runners instead of having them distributed throughout several pro sports leagues.
I agree with the numbers game. There are thousands of aerobically fit kids in the US that head to the soccer field. Then their heads are filled with the idea that if they play year round they'll get a scholarship.
By the time running programs kick in (usually middle school) there is already a huge drain on the potential running pool.
We do need more running programs that start at an early age.
There may also be genetics at play. The vast majority come from one tribe (in a genetic sense - not just from one small area).
But haven't we seen this before - whenever one culture became dominant. When the Irish were so successful, the Chinese women, the Finns etc. many thought it must be genetic. The Kenyans may not always be on top, although their streak of superiority is getting fairly long.
If you read enough stuff here you will find out that most people don't advocate LSD. They advocate higher mileage and lots of aerobic development through increasing intensity up to your anaerobic/aerobic threshold. Also, even Lydiard didn't believe in solely easy running. He had 3 runs during the week during base phase that was at a higher intensity (10 miles in about 53-55 minutes for his world class guys). Maybe you should pay more attention to what is actually written and not use anecdotal evidence from a guy who is still racing into his later years and probably can't handle lots of higher intensity stuff. Also, even Whitelock races over 30 times a year, so he is still getting in a lot of higher intensity stuff anyhow.
Improvement is all about stress and recovery. It's just facile to look at one aspect of training and say "that's the secret."
What makes sense in the context of one person's training at one particular time will not be universally correct. Moreover, the ratio of stress to recovery needed for optimal adaptation will vary between people, and probably differs for any one person over time.
All that said, there are some regularities in what you can expect given different approaches, and what you should try based on other people's experience. There are enough anecdotes and studies that something approximating "hard days hard, easy days easy" is a useful approach that it's worth trying. But there are also people who genuinely do better on more or less continuous moderately hard days. My guess is that they are a minority of the running population, but that doesn't make their approach to training any less valid since it works for them. That's what we're all looking for.
every single letsrun poster wrote:
lohalloran wrote:Read the rest of the site. They flat out run hard workouts but it also mentions that their easy runs are sometimes barely even a jog and they walk parts of the warmups.
Nooooo! It's because Americans are lazy and Kenyans are so hard-working so they don't ever run above 5 flat pace ever! Except college kids who race in practice and burn out because they're racing in practice and never recovering...but besides that it's because Americans are lazy! Because of playstations and the internet! That's why!
No its because we work more hours and have the opportunity to make more money. More opportunities here- its not a bad thing.
DoubleJ wrote:
I would venture to propose that it is mainly evolution at this point. If we spent generations upon generations at altitude, on foot, not over-eating, not eating processed crap for food, having to win races to get paid, then we would be there.
I suppose only allowing elite American males to date elite American women. Maybe that will help with the whole "better genes" problem.