Ma's Army - What were they on?

Most on this board seem to believe that they were on drugs. But many of the same believe that all or most top runners are on drugs. So, how is it that the Chinese have SO much better drugs than the Europeans, Africans, and Americans that a whole slew of women were putting down so many mind blowing times?

I also think (but wouldn't say that I KNOW) that drugs may have been involved, but they were remarkable performances considering how they much they stood out above all the other drugs aided performances.

Also, most people seem to forget that Wang won Olympic gold in the 5000 after leaving Ma's group.

# wrote:

Most on this board seem to believe that they were on drugs. But many of the same believe that all or most top runners are on drugs. So, how is it that the Chinese have SO much better drugs than the Europeans, Africans, and Americans that a whole slew of women were putting down so many mind blowing times?

I also think (but wouldn't say that I KNOW) that drugs may have been involved, but they were remarkable performances considering how they much they stood out above all the other drugs aided performances.

Right. What kind of wonder drugs? How much help can the best drugs ever offer? Does a 30:30 sans drugs get to be a minute faster?

I'm sure jtupper meant "billion" vice "million". 1.5 billion now, isn't it?

rd2 wrote:

they burned out under that kind of training? i mean, if they were on drugs and getting away with it, you;d think they would keep going. our US sprinters show this to be the case.

The case of Marion Jones who obviously tanked her Olympic trials, 2004 even though she hadn't actually been caught with anything illegal she was under suspicion.....we all know now she was using (huh?) EPO (for a sprinter?).

Nah, Ma's army of select runners were all doing something which couldn't be explained.

Whatta sport T & F has become ever since running went pro!!!

Gee, as my former barber (& former Harrier too) used to say to me, "I thought running was supposed to be for fun."

T & F's still fun in going for PR's, training well and everything else, keeping it in perspective. Just have to keep the ego, and other stuff which has soured a lot of people away, under control.

Oh for the record I, for one think heart monitors do have a good use as well as x-training too. Not that I'm going to go get my legs shaved & waxed and get a swastika tattoo to boot.

Wang ran the following within the space of 6 days, the 1,500 and two 3,000 metres were on consecutive days !!

08.09.93

10,000m

29:31:78

11.09.93

1,500m

03:51:92

12.09.93

3,000m

08:12:19

13.09.93

3,000m

08:06:11

Don't care if the did run 40k per day, you cant pop those sort of times in that short period wihout some seious assitance

Yup, it was supposed to be billion. Another point is that many of the great performances then were done at home and may not have been any testing going on. It sure would be nice to know what the best legal performances really are in this crazy world or sport. Sure would help coaches deal with young beginners and how to realistically talk to them about their chances in the future.

oopss!! wrote:

Wang ran the following within the space of 6 days, the 1,500 and two 3,000 metres were on consecutive days !!

08.09.93

10,000m

29:31:78

11.09.93

1,500m

03:51:92

12.09.93

3,000m

08:12:19

13.09.93

3,000m

08:06:11

Don't care if the did run 40k per day, you cant pop those sort of times in that short period wihout some seious assitance

so that 40k wouldnt be assistance?

most on this board are really out of touch with what is really going on in the track world, clean or dirty.

# wrote:

Most on this board seem to believe that they were on drugs. But many of the same believe that all or most top runners are on drugs. So, how is it that the Chinese have SO much better drugs than the Europeans, Africans, and Americans that a whole slew of women were putting down so many mind blowing times?

I also think (but wouldn't say that I KNOW) that drugs may have been involved, but they were remarkable performances considering how they much they stood out above all the other drugs aided performances.

I can not believe anyone would even consider that they were not on drugs.

But some people will deny the moon landing took place.

The coach and the athletes eventually got busted for drug use. Do the research. They never took the records away which is complete BS.

Only one of those athletes EVER competed (with any success) outside of China (and essentially outside of that one competition). The one that did ran very well, but nothing close to being on par with the '93 marks. I presume that there are political reasons why those marks were accepted as WRs but they are all bogus. The 10,000 is not really that far out of reach. Paula ran almost 30 flat in POURING rain, solo. There have been a large number of very low 30s marks, and not many non-Championship races where athletes peak for the race. The only "justice" is that the Kazakina (sp?) mark was replaced.

I think that Ma had a second run, not as spectacular are the first, which concluded with the positive tests.

This broke recently:

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/SPORT/08/25/athletics.china.reut/index.html

A real rogue, really!

I'm probably missing something here ..... so please inform us which of the Chinese women who ran so fast in 1993 or 1997 have tested positive.....Names, when, tested positive for what ??? Not the suspicions or the Coach or the former East German Coaches/Doctors or recent drug findings in China, please. Just the names of all the Chinese Women who tested positive, and therefore should be removed from the World Lists. Thank you !!!

Yoo Sau Dong wrote:

Weren't they on turtle blood and worm fungus???

Yes, that plus gerbil semen and Ma's whip. Ma was a really sick weirdo who also enjoyed got off on strict discipline AND the punishment he dished out.

I dunno. Statistically, it doesn't make sense for the records to jump like that.

Again, I will post the 10,000 list at the end of 1993.

1 29:31.78 Wang Junxia CHN 09.01.73 1 Beijing 08.09.1993

2 30:13.37 Zhong Huandi CHN 28.06.67 2 Beijing 08.09.1993

3 30:13.74 Ingrid Kristiansen NOR 21.03.56 1 Oslo 05.07.1986

4 30:23.25 Ingrid Kristiansen NOR 21.03.56 1 Stuttgart 30.08.1986

5 30:57.07 Elizabeth McColgan GBR 24.05.64 1 Hengelo 25.06.1991

6 30:57.21 Olga Bondarenko RUS 02.06.60 2 Stuttgart 30.08.1986

7 30:59.42 Ingrid Kristiansen NOR 21.03.56 1 Oslo 27.07.1985

8 31:03.62 Kathrin Weßel GER 14.08.67 1 Frankfurt 30.06.1991

9 31:05.21 Olga Bondarenko RUS 02.06.60 1 Seoul 30.09.1988

10 31:06.02 Derartu Tulu ETH 21.03.72 1 Barcelona 07.08.1992

11 31:06.99 Elizabeth McColgan GBR 24.05.64 1 Oslo 02.07.1988

12 31:07.88 Jill Hunter GBR 14.10.66 2 Frankfurt 30.06.1991

13 31:08.42 Wang Junxia CHN 09.01.73 1 Jinan 02.06.1993

14 31:08.44 Elizabeth McColgan GBR 24.05.64 2 Seoul 30.09.1988

15 31:09.25 Zhang Lirong CHN 03.03.73 3 Beijing 08.09.1993

16 31:09.40 Yelena Vyazova UKR 18.04.60 2 Roma 04.09.1987

17 31:10.46 Ma Liyan CHN 03.11.68 4 Beijing 08.09.1993

18 31:11.34 Kathrin Weßel GER 14.08.67 3 Roma 04.09.1987

19 31:11.72 Lisa Ondieki AUS 12.05.60 1 Helsinki 30.06.1992

20 31:11.75 Elana Meyer RSA 10.10.66 2 Barcelona 07.08.1992

21 31:12.55 Zhong Huandi CHN 28.06.67 2 Stuttgart 21.08.1993

22 31:13.78 Olga Bondarenko RUS 02.06.60 1 Kiev 24.06.1984

23 31:14.31 Elizabeth McColgan GBR 24.05.64 1 Tokyo 30.08.1991

24 31:15.00 Galina Zakharova RUS 07.09.56 2 Kiev 24.06.1984

25 31:15.38 Sally Barsosio KEN 21.03.78 3 Stuttgart 21.08.1993

26 31:15.66 Ingrid Kristiansen NOR 21.03.56 1 Oslo 04.07.1987

27 31:16.28 Zhang Linli CHN 06.03.73 5 Beijing 08.09.1993

28 31:16.42 Maria Conceição Ferreira POR 13.03.62 2 Helsinki 30.06.1992

29 31:18.18 Viorica Ghican ROM 09.06.65 1 Helsinki 27.06.1990

30 31:18.38 Olga Bondarenko RUS 02.06.60 4 Roma 04.09.1987

31 31:19.76 Ulrike Bruns GDR 17.11.53 3 Stuttgart 30.08.1986

32 31:19.82 Elizabeth McColgan GBR 24.05.64 5 Roma 04.09.1987

33 31:19.82 Yelena Vyazova UKR 18.04.60 3 Seoul 30.09.1988

34 31:19.89 Lynn Jennings USA 01.07.60 3 Barcelona 07.08.1992

35 31:20.28 Ingrid Kristiansen NOR 21.03.56 1 Hechtel 10.08.1991

36 31:20.62 Kathrin Weßel GER 14.08.67 1 Jena 28.05.1992

37 31:21.08 Zhong Huandi CHN 28.06.67 4 Barcelona 07.08.1992

38 31:21.20 Tegla Loroupe KEN 09.05.73 1 Warstein 06.07.1993

39 31:21.36 Uta Pippig GER 07.09.65 2 Jena 28.05.1992

40 31:23.92 Liu Jingying CHN 19.11.71 6 Beijing 08.09.1993

41 31:25.18 Olga Bondarenko RUS 02.06.60 1 Moskva 09.06.1985

42 31:26.11 Elizabeth McColgan GBR 24.05.64 5 Barcelona 07.08.1992

43 31:26.79 Kathrin Weßel GER 14.08.67 1 Potsdam 08.06.1988

44 31:27.00 Wang Xiuting CHN 16.02.65 1 Guangzhou 29.11.1987

45 31:27.58 Raisa Sadreydinova RUS 09.05.50 1 Odessa 07.09.1983

46 31:27.99 Hou Juhua CHN 67 2 Guangzhou 29.11.1987

47 31:28.06 Wang Xiuting CHN 16.02.65 6 Barcelona 07.08.1992

48 31:28.83 Wei Li CHN 29.06.72 7 Beijing 08.09.1993

49 31:28.92 Francie Larrieu-Smith USA 23.11.52 1 Austin 04.04.1991

50 31:29.27 Kathrin Weßel GER 14.08.67 4 Seoul 30.09.1988

In 1986 Ingrid Kristiansen lowered the world record by 43+ seconds. Then Wang lowered it by 42 more. An outlier yes, but then so was Kristiansen at the time.

"statistically"? what distribution are using???

sleeper wrote:

In 1986 Ingrid Kristiansen lowered the world record by 43+ seconds. Then Wang lowered it by 42 more. An outlier yes, but then so was Kristiansen at the time.

For the 10 millionth time, this "outlier" argument simply doesn't work. It wasn't simply that Wang ran 29:31. She ran it with a 15:05 first half and a 14:26 second half (and 8:17.5 last 3000). Could anyone today do that? NO. Plus, look again at her other performances in a matter of 4 or 5 days. We are by no means simply talking about one "great" performance. We're talking about a truly unbelievable sequence of marks, from one athlete, and one team, in one week. None of it makes sense.