Komen's 3000 not as good as everyone thinks

link wrote:

Yes. Look at it this way: The 3 is about 58.7/ lap, while the 5 is 60.6. On the other hand, the 15 is 54.8. So, doubling the distance to the 3 we slow down about 4 s/lap. Going 66% farther we slow down less than 2. If one were to draw a line connecting the 15 to the 5, the 3 would be slower than the line predicted. Thus, either the 15 or the 5 is better than the 3. Frankly, I think they both are, but it seems to me that the 15 is the best of the lot. I think the 10 is also better than the 3.

Note, too, that longevity of a record is not a good indication of its quality. Was Komen's record any less impressive one year after he set it?

Personally, I think that ElG's 2k is the best record on the books for 15 and up.

You are describing a plot of pace vs. log distance. If you do this for one individual, then it fits their profile of performance over the distances pretty well (from ~400m to 10km). What you are calculating is what one athlete, capable of equalling both the 1500m and 5km records would be capable of running for 3km. ~7:20 is exactly what you'd expect from Komen's 1500m and 5km times.

Someone said that Komen was not a 3km specialist - thats a bit misleading i think. He was a 1500m to 5km athlete - of course he's going to be very appropriately trained for the 3km!

Its a good record, but not the 'beast' some people make it out to be. The rarity of top quality 3km races is certainly one factor in its longevity. The other is the fact that 1500-5km is a rarer event combination than 800-1500 and 5km - 10km. I don't think El G was ever simultaneously in good enough shape for 1500m and 5km to get this record.

The 3000 and the 200 will probably last longer than any of the current track records (not counting field events). To me, that means they're the "best" records. They're just so far ahead of what anyone else has been able to do.

Aouita ran a thrilling WR in the 3000 in 1989 - and he just barely went under 7:30. Aouita ran 7:28 or 7:29. Komen went 8-9 seconds faster. Geb, El G didn't race 3000 often but when they did it was specifically to try to top this record and they weren't even close.

El Guerrouj ran his 7:23 the same season he ran the mile WR - he was in top form.

Yep. And Komen ran 7:58.61 and 7:58.91 in his 2 sub-8 2 miles. His 7:20 3000 works out to about a 7:55 2 mile, if he had kept going for 218 more meters. Now, a LOT of people were trying to break the 2 mile record, including Geb, and so clearly Komen's marks are way ahead of anyone else there as well.

actually only Geb was trying to break that record.

MarathonMind wrote:

Yep. And Komen ran 7:58.61 and 7:58.91 in his 2 sub-8 2 miles. His 7:20 3000 works out to about a 7:55 2 mile, if he had kept going for 218 more meters. Now, a LOT of people were trying to break the 2 mile record, including Geb, and so clearly Komen's marks are way ahead of anyone else there as well.

whoops I got cut off earlier.... anyway, it should be pretty darn clear at this point that Komen really focused a lot on the 3000/2M distance, going after records in both distances, and indoors as well. After him, only really Geb has gone for the record (when he focused on it in 1998) but it shouldn't surprise anyone that he came up short because he didn't have the same 1500 speed that Komen did. So please don't say a lot of people have gone after this record, because very few have really tried. Aside from ElG's one semi-attempt at it 7yrs ago, there has been NO 3000m with rabbits set out to run 2:26-2:27 pace from the start and through 2000. This plainly shows that no one is bothering the record really.

So if the WR holder in the 1500 can't break the WR in the 3000m, that means the 3000m WR is harder to beat? By that logic, shouldn't the fact that none of the other WR holders can break the WR in other arbitrary distances make those arbitrary distances the "best WR" as well?

Aren't world records supposed to be the fastest times EVER at those distances? Comparing WRs across different distances is like comparing apples to oranges.

Komen also set a 5000 WR, so he was clearly better than Geb from 5 on down, and, obviously better than anyone who has ever lived at 3.

You are an idiot. Komen was not better at 5k than Geb. At best you could say they were equals, but Geb beat him on multiple occasions and also BROKE KOMEN'S WR... so your logic that Komen is better because he was faster is completely flawed, since he wasn't faster at 5k.

The 3k record is undoubtedly sick, and perhaps about as good as the 15 and 5k, but anyone who doesn't think El G could have run about 7:18 in his prime is kidding himself. He seriously only made one attempt and ran 7:23. El G could easily run 12:40 for 5k, maybe even 12:35, and combined with 3:26.00 speed (over 3 seconds faster than komen's PR!), he would break the record. Komen even said after the race that he could have easily broken 7:20 but relaxed at the end of the race, knowing he had the record in the bag. People just think the record is amazing because Geb tried multiple times and couldn't get that close, and he also failed at breaking 8 where Komen succeeded. Geb, quite frankly, isn't that fast (sprint-speed wise) compared to Komen and especially not El G, and it should come as no surprise that he can't match their 3k times. When El G runs a 58:xx half marathon, then we can start comparing the two runners.

On a related note, the 5k record is absolutely better than the 10k. I have no doubt that Bekele could run close to 26:00 in the right race, certainly under 26:10.

I don't see how you can call ElG's one serious foray evidence that he really tried to beat the record? Geb ran the 3000 4 times or more in 1998 and plenty of other times in the sorrounding years. ElG ran it once. It took Komen 3 tries to get the record in 1996. So saying ElG's 7:23 is the best he could ever run is a real stretch.

I agreed with everything you said except for "You are an idiot" and "Bekele could run close to 26:00..."

Bekele break 26:10? No way.

I know a stat geek that plotted the race distances vs. the world record speeds in meters per second and had a computer program make a "best fit" curve for the data. It turned out the 3, 5 and 10 records were all faster than their predicted values, but the 5 and 10 records were actually farther ahead of the curve than the 7:20 was. This was when Gebrselassie held both long records, and those records have been lowered since by Bekele.

I was surprised, too. I thought the 7:20 was way out there.

Maybe formulas are stupid and the records themselves are the only things that count. Maybe Komen was just so uniquely suited to the 3,000 that he was in a class by himself in that event. Or maybe the 3,000 record will soon be broken numerous times by different runners while the 5 and 10 records stagnate, and we'll all be saying how "soft" that 7:20 was compared to those "unbeatable" 5 and 10 times. All the charts and formulas will change to reflect what people have actually done.

the 800 world record appears to be out there. Coe's record lasted a long time before Kipketer took it down. And now we get excited when athletes break 1:44.

Too bad EL G, Lagat, Shaheen and others didn't get rabbitted through a 3000 time trial. It would have been interesting to see if the record could be taken down.

All the World records are very hard to comprehend when you break them down.

It is just one persons opinion over another on which one is the greatest.

In my opinion they are all amazing and one should not be chosen as the best.

For an example the Marathon WR, try to comprehend running 105 consecutive 400's at 71.55 per lap. That is out of this world.

Another interesting point:

Many of the VO2 Max calculators wehre you eneter a running performance yield a higher value for the 5000 record than the 3000.

yea...the 800 is probably the record that will stay around longer than the others. You also gotta remember that Komen ran more than half of that 3k by himself. And I think he could have went faster, cause his splits werent really consistent on that second mile.

Bekele can lower the 10k by maybe 10 seconds. If maybe he had someone that can pace him for more than 5K.

coach wrote:

the 800 world record appears to be out there. Coe's record lasted a long time before Kipketer took it down. And now we get excited when athletes break 1:44.

Too bad EL G, Lagat, Shaheen and others didn't get rabbitted through a 3000 time trial. It would have been interesting to see if the record could be taken down.

That's actually a very good point- no one has really mentioned the 800 wr. It's not a distance event, but I would agree that the 800 is at least equal to the 3k in terms of impressiveness.

i am not sure why everyone is bashing Geb on this thread.

I think on the right day he could have done it. He did run 7:26.15 indoors and set the current WR in the indoor two mile 8:04.69 when he was 30!!

Not to mention his PR in the 1500m is a Indoor World Championship 3:31.76. Which certainly means he could have run sub 3:30 outdoors had he run the event more.

That is range, Komen may have the 3k WR's(Indoor 7:24.9 WR.)

but he certainly did not have the range like Geb.

The fact that Geb came so close is absolutely amazing, I mean you didnt see Komen in the 10k too.

Geb broke the half marathon WR, and its only a matter of time before he gets the marathon WR too.

G. O. A. T.

ambassador orange wrote:

Aouita ran a thrilling WR in the 3000 in 1989 - and he just barely went under 7:30. Aouita ran 7:28 or 7:29. Komen went 8-9 seconds faster. .

And Bekele went 24 seconds faster in the 5000.