I’ve never ever seen a guy of his level (the ability and tools to win almost every race he’s in right now), either win races by far too tight margins or conversely lose them with performances exactly like that one.
And the races he does win he is the beneficiary of other guys making dumb errors themselves - case in point Nico Young at US indoors in the 3000.
No disrespect to Josh Kerr (who I picked to win for this EXACT reason) but how could anyone watch that race and walk away saying Hocker wasn’t the best physical talent in the field? But this just happens so often now and with the exact same script it’s almost comical now. I was laughing as this race unfolded and saw Hocker getting himself shuffled back for the umpteenth time in a big final.
He’s the worst tactician I’ve ever seen of any level of talent. Like who is worse? Seriously someone give me a name.
Kiprop was worse.
That’s a good name. The 2009 final was an alltimer. But that being said I can’t remember a pattern of the same mode of failure just being repeated. Plus Kiprop was conceivably only winning races because of doping.
But good name - much better than Nordas or Ethan Strand (wtf)
That’s a good name. The 2009 final was an alltimer. But that being said I can’t remember a pattern of the same mode of failure just being repeated. Plus Kiprop was conceivably only winning races because of doping.
But good name - much better than Nordas or Ethan Strand (wtf)
Silas Kiplagat also worse than Hocker tactically. I’m not sure what you want out of names. Nordas, Hoare, Nuguse, Habz, Myers, Mills, Kipsang, Katir all are worse tactically.
It's absolutely a serious take. We're talking about tactics. Did you ever watch the guy run? He'd often put himself in very tough spots but he was just better than everyone else so he still won. Watch the 2016 Olympic final again.
And #3 time in history has zero to do with tactics.
Read the bold sentence again….
Hocker clearly isn’t better than everyone else, which is why he can’t keep using the SAME IDENTICAL TACTICS and still expect to win. It doesn’t work for him, because he keeps losing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Hocker is not fast enough to race the same way as Kiprop. Obviously. So no, Kiprop was not a worse tactician than Hocker. Find someone else as an example. Until then, Hocker is the worst tactical distance runner in the past 6 years. Stay on topic.
So according to you:
-Hocker clearly isn't better than everyone else -Yet he has won Olympic and world titles using his tactics -And he is still an awful tactician
What races should Nordas have won but didn’t because of messing up his tactics consistently (and in the same manor)?
serious question here.
He should’ve beaten Jakob in Budapest, he ran the Glasgow 1500 World Indoors idiotically. He ran his semi last year terribly and didn’t advance. Numerous European level races (Championships) he’s bungled too.
To be a guy who can win your tactics better be at least decent or you have to be above-and-beyond physically. Hocker is not that, as many are close in fitness. He combines a good kick with somewhat erratic tactics. He rarely completely screws up though USA Indoors and his semi were that. Today was not,
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
Despite all the vitriol Hocker though gets a silver. Beamish ran 7:45.
Yes and several 7:30 men weren’t even close to a medal. How about Kerr and Scrub ran exceptionally well, Hocker ran pretty well. Krop based on his form acquitted himself well, and nearly everyone else somewhat disappointed in terms of tactics, execution and positioning.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
-Hocker clearly isn't better than everyone else -Yet he has won Olympic and world titles using his tactics -And he is still an awful tactician
For your sake, I truly hope you have more intelligence than the opinions you produce on letsrun
- in the past 6 years, is there anyone with similar fitness and potential who demonstrates worse tactics than Hocker?
- singular, not plural. He will never win another global championship. He will never be a 3:26 or a 12:40 guy which is what you need to be able to race a global championship with terrible tactics and still win.
- yes. There is a reason he isn’t running the 1500m this week and it doesn’t have to do with his current fitness or the strength of the American indoor field lol
burns energy at the start to lead, settles back to the middle, gets routinely boxed in from 800-300m from the line, and falters with a failing kick. Happens 9/10 times in races that don’t matter and in global finals. Discuss
Beamish is pretty terrible tactics-wise in 90% of his races. Maybe worse than Nordas but has a massive kick so has gotten lucky a few times in some big races. I don't equate winning every so often with having good tactics. Love the guy, but for example today, where was he? Why?
Re: Beamish - I’m a big fan. At the same time - his tactic (if you want to call it tactics) is simply to avoid sticking his nose in the race and hope he’s still has a shot to use his huge kick on the last lap.
I think his tactics were fine, I just don’t think he was good enough to win today. Kerr was clearly better today.
The only rational post on the entire thread. This is why they run races.
thank you. Even hocker gave himself an A- today. you can't know exactly the moment that best to go. it's difficult enough to gauge your own energy, you have to know what others are playing with as well.
hindsight is 20/20. was there a different, better path for Hocker? maybe. or maybe he makes that different move and blows up.
Beamish is pretty terrible tactics-wise in 90% of his races. Maybe worse than Nordas but has a massive kick so has gotten lucky a few times in some big races. I don't equate winning every so often with having good tactics. Love the guy, but for example today, where was he? Why?
Re: Beamish - I’m a big fan. At the same time - his tactic (if you want to call it tactics) is simply to avoid sticking his nose in the race and hope he’s still has a shot to use his huge kick on the last lap.
That is the tactic that gives beamish the best chance to sneak out an occassional win. probably the same for Nordas. nothing terrible about it. Paul chelimo is another.
That’s a good name. The 2009 final was an alltimer. But that being said I can’t remember a pattern of the same mode of failure just being repeated. Plus Kiprop was conceivably only winning races because of doping.
But good name - much better than Nordas or Ethan Strand (wtf)
Ironically, Kiprop only "won" Olympic Gold because the winner was DQ'd for doping. That aside, Kiprop was by far not the only one doping in those 1500 m finals, so his doping wasn't the only reason for his wins.
Hocker's results only stand out because he is so fast. You are likely paying more attention to the way he races than you are to other people who do worse with what they are given. Even granting the premise that he is underperforming his ability level (I don't disagree that there have been some questionable decisions), "worst" is overselling it.
Really the worst tactician is going to be someone who is a few seconds slower, but underperforms so much that we hardly know their name.
hindsight is 20/20. was there a different, better path for Hocker? maybe. or maybe he makes that different move and blows up.
Fair point - how about one path that well, Josh Kerr took? And it’s not like that was crazy piece of awesome tactical running. He kept out of trouble, didn’t overreact to moves, moved up at the right time before his run to the finish.
If Hocker runs the race of Kerr he wins by 3-4 meters. If he even ran on the shoulder of Kerr he wins going away.
Or do you disagree with that?
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
(1) going out in 55 or even 54 and then either leading gun-to-tape or getting run down.
(2) lurking at the back and then going crazy and loping by everyone to win.
(A runner on EPO and with 'fitness' head-and-shoulders above his competition could get away with this, and he certainly racked up a lot of wins.)
Hocker, on the other hand, is sort of neither here nor there.
While some canny runners (Kerr) will sit in at 2nd or 3rd, Hocker will run mid-pack, either from the start or (truly bizarrely) leading the race and then getting embedded in the mid-pack, with so little resistance from the 3:27 3:45 / 7:23 man that it can only be described as allowing it to happen.
Running from the back can work out. (Jakob, Kiprop.)
Leading out or staying glued to the leader's shoulder often works out. (Kerr, Farah.)
This thing of Hocker's sees him losing what should be winnable races for him. It is like Groundhog Day how repetitive it has become. It is not great for the guy in the race with world-leading flat ability (3:45 this season!!) to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in this way.
25
2
Let me go out and lead only to get boxed in and outkicked
Kejelcha has a long history of underperforming in championship races relative to his talent. He has found many ways to lose.
Idk if I can fully agree with this one. He has 2 indoor WC golds, has 2 WC silvers, you can argue that he should’ve beaten Jimmy G last summer but he had already moved his focus to the roads. Losing to Cheptagei is understandable.
I agree with his 2024 Olympics, missing the podium and finishing 6th doesn’t look good on his record. He is definitely better suited for the roads and has proven himself very good there as a distance runner and tactician