The influx of internationals is a problem in all sports, and is going to get a lot worse in TRACK now that men's teams JUST increased from 12.6 scholarships to 45 scholarships. The vast majority of those additional scholarships are going to end up with international people.
Nobody honestly believes more Americans are going to buy ESPN+ or Flotrack subscriptions to watch the top 5 Americans struggle against 25-30 year old Kenyans that are doping.
High school track meets have more fans in attendance than college meets because fans are actually invested in the athletes.
Fans are definitely more invested in high school track than college but a lot of that is because the athletes are their friends, their kids, and friends of their kids. I doubt I've ever been to a high school meet where any significant number of spectators didn't have some personal connection to at least a few of the competitors.
And high school meets actually mean something, scores are kept, league standings are kept. Most college races either don't keep score at all or have so many teams running that except for the few in the top places placing doesn't matter that much at least to fans.
Very much agree. Can pretty much ignore NCAA XC until Halloween, or even after that if you don't care about conference meets anymore per rampant realignment and accelerating coaching turnover. Sorry, there were many reasons prior to this season and exclusive of OK State and New Mexico's roster make-up to feel indifferent toward the sport when you have no direct connection to anyone currently participating in it.
The influx of internationals is a problem in all sports, and is going to get a lot worse in TRACK now that men's teams JUST increased from 12.6 scholarships to 45 scholarships. The vast majority of those additional scholarships are going to end up with international people.
Nobody honestly believes more Americans are going to buy ESPN+ or Flotrack subscriptions to watch the top 5 Americans struggle against 25-30 year old Kenyans that are doping.
High school track meets have more fans in attendance than college meets because fans are actually invested in the athletes.
Fans are definitely more invested in high school track than college but a lot of that is because the athletes are their friends, their kids, and friends of their kids. I doubt I've ever been to a high school meet where any significant number of spectators didn't have some personal connection to at least a few of the competitors.
And high school meets actually mean something, scores are kept, league standings are kept. Most college races either don't keep score at all or have so many teams running that except for the few in the top places placing doesn't matter that much at least to fans.
You are missing the forest for the trees. The community/friends/family/neighbors aspect of high school cross country would also be true of collegiate XC if it weren't for the mass flow of internationals. Nobody in America has any sort of connection or investment into them.
Edward Cheserek was a HERO in American XC/TF because thousands of kids raced against him in high school or saw him in high school meets. He was a Kenyan citizen but he raced in American high school so people had a connection in him and thus were massive fans.
Nobody cares about these random internationals that come over that nobody has ever heard of before.
Nearly every region was dominated by Kenyans that are clearly doping.
You want us to believe that there are 100 "CLEAN" college aged Kenyans now in the NCAA that are better than all but a few American college aged kids? When American pro runners are now performing better than Kenyans in nearly every distance event on the track? And a lot of Kenya's best young athletes stay in Kenya and are on pro contracts, so we are supposed to believe that Kenya has 200 young clean athletes that are all better then everyone but the top 5 or 6 Americans.
It's beyond belief. And it's ruining the sport. They are dirty and it is making our sport lose fans in mass numbers.
Whenever anyone posts something like this I just remember what Jenny b said about Sally k . Hate it? Find something else
I don’t believe they are 100 percent clean. But I also don’t believe they are 100 percent dirty. Genetic advantage plus using scholarbook to handpick the best runners in Kenya who sometimes are already pro runners before even entering the ncaa plus going to easy academic schools plus being older than traditional age. That’s enough of a recipe for success for many if not most to be extremely successful without doping. They look like they are really hurting in races and aren’t posting otherworldly times with suspicious progressions. I’m not going to assume someone living and training in the states is dirty just because they were born in Kenya.
Without jumping onboard with the doping narratives, I will say that it would make sense that the NCAA XC product as we know it today could be hurting fan turnout for the following reasons:
Without them, who is showing up?
If the race had 200 Prefontaines and 200 Tuohys, there would still be no fan support. XC and track simply do not attract paying fans unless they are friends and family of participants.
Fans are definitely more invested in high school track than college but a lot of that is because the athletes are their friends, their kids, and friends of their kids. I doubt I've ever been to a high school meet where any significant number of spectators didn't have some personal connection to at least a few of the competitors.
And high school meets actually mean something, scores are kept, league standings are kept. Most college races either don't keep score at all or have so many teams running that except for the few in the top places placing doesn't matter that much at least to fans.
You are missing the forest for the trees. The community/friends/family/neighbors aspect of high school cross country would also be true of collegiate XC if it weren't for the mass flow of internationals. Nobody in America has any sort of connection or investment into them.
Edward Cheserek was a HERO in American XC/TF because thousands of kids raced against him in high school or saw him in high school meets. He was a Kenyan citizen but he raced in American high school so people had a connection in him and thus were massive fans.
Nobody cares about these random internationals that come over that nobody has ever heard of before.
You really think that when Utah State flies across most of the country to run at Paul Short or a west coast school flies to Madison to finish something like ninth or nineteenth in a what, thirty, forty, fifty team field there would ever be any kind of community aspect to the meet? When you had dual meets like Penn State-Pitt or Oregon State-Oregon or Washington-Oregon you could get a community/friends/family thing going because locals and students could watch the meets and get interested in who wins. If you want that sort of atmosphere you need people who would be part of that to see your team race, i.e., you need some home meets, more than one. High school teams have several so friends and parents can watch their kids, friends, etc., race.
Nearly every region was dominated by Kenyans that are clearly doping.
You want us to believe that there are 100 "CLEAN" college aged Kenyans now in the NCAA that are better than all but a few American college aged kids? When American pro runners are now performing better than Kenyans in nearly every distance event on the track? And a lot of Kenya's best young athletes stay in Kenya and are on pro contracts, so we are supposed to believe that Kenya has 200 young clean athletes that are all better then everyone but the top 5 or 6 Americans.
It's beyond belief. And it's ruining the sport. They are dirty and it is making our sport lose fans in mass numbers.
Whenever anyone posts something like this I just remember what Jenny b said about Sally k . Hate it? Find something else
Everyone knows exactly what that quote is so your point is irrefutable.
Yep. Greed and NIL killed it. In addition to dirty Kenyan semipros, we have domestic runners who clearly started doping in high school. Once the fire wall comes down, it is gone for good. Valby was the real downfall. People saw her obviously doping and decided to keep up.
Honestly only Trump can fix this… no one else has the stones to do it. Using US tax dollars to subsidize non-us athletes? *Are any other countries in the world doing this at scale to help foreign college aged kids develop?
No ones talking about it, but BYU isnt an overaged school anymore. Tayvon Kitchen is a true freshman.
Davin Thompson, Noah Jenkins, and Isaac Hedengren haven't served missions, they are normal college ages.
When Isaac Hedengren is healthy, thats arguably 4 of their top 5. And a 5th would be James Corrigan who isn't very old either, although he has served a mission but also went to the Olympics at 22 years old.
And of course none of the women have served missions and they are dominant.
BYU is good, no kenyans or age cheating required.
I want to know how they keep getting more eligibility. Alder returned AGAIN after using all her eligibility. On every official result page this year Chamberlain and Lovell are listed as Juniors-they are true seniors. How do they keep doing that???
5 years ago with Nico Young, Drew Bosley, Ky Robinson, Conor Mantz and Charles Hicks all racing for the win was a lot more interesting than it is today.
Without jumping onboard with the doping narratives, I will say that it would make sense that the NCAA XC product as we know it today could be hurting fan turnout for the following reasons:
Without them, who is showing up?
If the race had 200 Prefontaines and 200 Tuohys, there would still be no fan support. XC and track simply do not attract paying fans unless they are friends and family of participants.
If 30 additional American kids qualified for nationals instead of the Kenyans, that's probably an additional 200+ fans AT the NCAA championships (for example if each athlete has 6 people that go - mom, dad, brother, sister, boyfriend/girlfriend, and high school coach then that's 180).
When my son qualified in the 2000s we actually had about 25 people there to cheer for him. Immediate family, extended family, and about a dozen of his high school teammates.
And each American qualifier would also draw a large amount of online viewers of people unable to make it to the meet. Former teammates, rivals from high school. If from a small state, then a large portion of fans from that state would tune in.
You are missing the forest for the trees. The community/friends/family/neighbors aspect of high school cross country would also be true of collegiate XC if it weren't for the mass flow of internationals. Nobody in America has any sort of connection or investment into them.
Edward Cheserek was a HERO in American XC/TF because thousands of kids raced against him in high school or saw him in high school meets. He was a Kenyan citizen but he raced in American high school so people had a connection in him and thus were massive fans.
Nobody cares about these random internationals that come over that nobody has ever heard of before.
You really think that when Utah State flies across most of the country to run at Paul Short or a west coast school flies to Madison to finish something like ninth or nineteenth in a what, thirty, forty, fifty team field there would ever be any kind of community aspect to the meet? When you had dual meets like Penn State-Pitt or Oregon State-Oregon or Washington-Oregon you could get a community/friends/family thing going because locals and students could watch the meets and get interested in who wins. If you want that sort of atmosphere you need people who would be part of that to see your team race, i.e., you need some home meets, more than one. High school teams have several so friends and parents can watch their kids, friends, etc., race.
Utah State literally flies to Paul Short FOR the community aspect of the meet. Their head coach is Artie Gulden, the son of the Hall of Fame coach at Bucknell - which is Artie's alma mater and only about 90 minutes from Lehigh. It's Artie's chance to go back home.
Beyond the community aspect, people want to watch talented athletes they can relate to. Gary Martin with his nerdy glasses and a 3:48 mile, for example, signs autographs and takes selfies with fans at almost every meet, no matter what state he is competing in.
Nobody EVER asks to get pictures or an autograph from Habtom Samuel.
There are cases like Brian Musau where they claim that they are young, much younger than they actually are, but more often I expect that these Kenyan imports are better than almost all American collegians because they are not only coming from a country with a very deep bench, but also because they are in their mid to late 20s, if not in their early 30s. Many have probably doped as well, given that this is a country with more than 400 bans over the past ten years or so, most in the distances, but the age alone confers a major advantage.
Yep. Greed and NIL killed it. In addition to dirty Kenyan semipros, we have domestic runners who clearly started doping in high school. Once the fire wall comes down, it is gone for good. Valby was the real downfall. People saw her obviously doping and decided to keep up.
Doping is so much more rampant than ever, people will continue to claim that it's just more "exposed" or whatever, but the reality is that the amount of people using PEDs is growing every year. Whether it's for sports or aesthetics, the morality behind using "PEDs" has shifted tremendously.
It's Artie's chance to go back home. How many of his runners does that apply to?
Most of his runners are from Utah. I guess they will just have to attend 1 of the 2 home meets that Utah State hosts....or one of the 2 other meets they had in Utah this year.