I believe that some know they're cheating and some don't. I have a friend in Iten who told me that a lot of coaches or agents give something to their athletes saying "Take this. It will help you run faster" without saying what it is and the athletes do.
Is that naivete? Is it willfull naivete? I don't know. I do know that most of these athletes don't spend tons of time looking at Letsrun and reading all the doping news. I do recall a conversation decades ago with a woman who in her time had been one of the better 800 meter runners in East Germany about the doping situation there. She told me that most of their doped athletes did not know they were doping. A coach or doctor gave them something and said "Take this. It will help you run faster (or throw farther or jump higher or longer.) "And you took it," she told me. "You did not ask questions."
If we're talking about Kenyans or anyone else who knowingly took something illegal and is now depressed because they got caught and suspended I can only think that they gambled and lost. But I do feel for someone who really trusted a coach or agent mistakenly.
I think your 'friend in Iten' is just downplaying the athletes' involvement in the whole cheating episode.
It's just pushing the 'poor innocent Kenyan athletes' and 'evil foreign agents/coaches' narrative which is used to move the blame away from the athletes and Kenya in general.
It's this inability to take any sort of responsibility for the problem which stops anything actually being done about things.
You could be right but my friend in Iten is actually there and knows most of the people who run there so I'm inclined to give his comments a bit more credence than someone speculating on a message board. But yes, some are his friends and he may want to believe they are honest.
I think your 'friend in Iten' is just downplaying the athletes' involvement in the whole cheating episode.
It's just pushing the 'poor innocent Kenyan athletes' and 'evil foreign agents/coaches' narrative which is used to move the blame away from the athletes and Kenya in general.
It's this inability to take any sort of responsibility for the problem which stops anything actually being done about things.
You could be right but my friend in Iten is actually there and knows most of the people who run there so I'm inclined to give his comments a bit more credence than someone speculating on a message board. But yes, some are his friends and he may want to believe they are honest.
If Kenya authorities wants to punish punish foreign agents and coaches of doped athletes, they can do it. Kenya has legal assistance agreements with the EU and various countries. Aiding and abetting of fraud is a thing. Even just opening legal proceedings against would send a strong message. They don't even need WADA or ADAK to do anything.
Most of the Kenyan runners come from poor households and lack good education. They are often manipulated into taking "vitamins" from others who oversee their careers. Facing lifelong bans when there was no intent to cheat is a gross miscarriage of justice, I think. I think many of the Kenyan cases fall into this category, unfortunately.
Come on man.
The whole 'Kenyans are too stupid and backwards to even know what cheating is' was an excuse that went out of fashion about a decade ago.
They know they're cheating, and they don't care because they just want the cash.
This story has another POC victim narrative written all over it. Oh poor Africans... They made the choice, let them live or die. Their lives.
Why din’t you be a man and get off that welfare you collect and get rid of the free tax-payer aubsidized apartment you live in. Leave France. Go back to Morocco and complain about whitey from there, while showing us what you can do on your own.
Do I need to send you a photograph of me in this town North of Morocco where I'm? not so far from Berkane. (*)
Or is it only your imagination working out of loop?
(*) I'm way way way ... more proud than any African living and seeking his food in the West. But I dont blame them.
Nah. The poster egging you is right, based on other things you’ve posted. If you’re now “just North of Morocco” you must have moved your social services looting to Spain. But in all likelihood you’re still in France, on the dole, making things unsafe for women and sheep (old habits die hard for you fellas apparently).
Most of the Kenyan runners come from poor households and lack good education. They are often manipulated into taking "vitamins" from others who oversee their careers. Facing lifelong bans when there was no intent to cheat is a gross miscarriage of justice, I think. I think many of the Kenyan cases fall into this category, unfortunately.
Come on man.
The whole 'Kenyans are too stupid and backwards to even know what cheating is' was an excuse that went out of fashion about a decade ago.
They know they're cheating, and they don't care because they just want the cash.
You're absolutely right - some of the Kenyan runners know exactly what they're doing, but there are many who don't really know what they're doing and they're not looking past their nose with regard to getting an advantage in any shape or form and many of them are gullible. I've been to Kenya several times and I've seen everything with my own eyes. If you as a white man (Mzungu ) - show up in Kenya and go to a town in the Rift Valley and tell an unsuspecting runner "take this vitamin it will help you run faster" - they will take it without any hesitation.
You're absolutely right - some of the Kenyan runners know exactly what they're doing, but there are many who don't really know what they're doing and they're not looking past their nose with regard to getting an advantage in any shape or form and many of them are gullible. I've been to Kenya several times and I've seen everything with my own eyes. If you as a white man (Mzungu ) - show up in Kenya and go to a town in the Rift Valley and tell an unsuspecting runner "take this vitamin it will help you run faster" - they will take it without any hesitation.
So you're saying that we should just let Kenya carry on pillaging the sport because a lot of their athletes are stupid?
Why din’t you be a man and get off that welfare you collect and get rid of the free tax-payer aubsidized apartment you live in. Leave France. Go back to Morocco and complain about whitey from there, while showing us what you can do on your own.
Do I need to send you a photograph of me in this town North of Morocco where I'm? not so far from Berkane. (*)
Or is it only your imagination working out of loop?
(*) I'm way way way ... more proud than any African living and seeking his food in the West. But I dont blame them.
We're onto you Passant. We recorded you on your daily run this morning. "Not able to work for the last 20 years due to a bad back", but you can hobby job 8 miles every morning? Mon Dieu!!
You could be right but my friend in Iten is actually there and knows most of the people who run there so I'm inclined to give his comments a bit more credence than someone speculating on a message board. But yes, some are his friends and he may want to believe they are honest.
If Kenya authorities wants to punish punish foreign agents and coaches of doped athletes, they can do it. Kenya has legal assistance agreements with the EU and various countries. Aiding and abetting of fraud is a thing. Even just opening legal proceedings against would send a strong message. They don't even need WADA or ADAK to do anything.
Absolutely. But going a bit further with things my friend in Iten tells me is that there is no interest at all among Kenayn authorites to do this. There are loads of kickbacks going on and many of those authorities are getting nice chunks of money won by dopers.
You're absolutely right - some of the Kenyan runners know exactly what they're doing, but there are many who don't really know what they're doing and they're not looking past their nose with regard to getting an advantage in any shape or form and many of them are gullible. I've been to Kenya several times and I've seen everything with my own eyes. If you as a white man (Mzungu ) - show up in Kenya and go to a town in the Rift Valley and tell an unsuspecting runner "take this vitamin it will help you run faster" - they will take it without any hesitation.
So you're saying that we should just let Kenya carry on pillaging the sport because a lot of their athletes are stupid?
It certainly seems like you're saying that.
For what it's worth, to me that is not at all what Ghost seems to be saying.
If Kenya authorities wants to punish punish foreign agents and coaches of doped athletes, they can do it. Kenya has legal assistance agreements with the EU and various countries. Aiding and abetting of fraud is a thing. Even just opening legal proceedings against would send a strong message. They don't even need WADA or ADAK to do anything.
Absolutely. But going a bit further with things my friend in Iten tells me is that there is no interest at all among Kenayn authorites to do this. There are loads of kickbacks going on and many of those authorities are getting nice chunks of money won by dopers.
They arrested and charged Wanyounyi's coach Berardelli for giving Rita Jeptoo EPO, and no doubt more than a little tea money changed hands and he walked free.
Absolutely. But going a bit further with things my friend in Iten tells me is that there is no interest at all among Kenayn authorites to do this. There are loads of kickbacks going on and many of those authorities are getting nice chunks of money won by dopers.
They arrested and charged Wanyounyi's coach Berardelli for giving Rita Jeptoo EPO, and no doubt more than a little tea money changed hands and he walked free.
During the CAS hearing, it came out that Rita Jeptoo had hidden her visits to the doctor from her coach and manager.
In the Kenyan court case, Berardelli was acquitted with the judge quoting the CAS ruling and agreeing that there was no evidence against Berardelli.
The article points a finger at WADA's "strict liability" rule which could "potentially leads to unjust punishments for innocent athletes who ingest prohibited substances inadvertently", and points to the risk of contamination of supplements and vitamins.
The problem extends far beyond the primary sanction, as they are completely cut off from Athletics Kenyan, and vilified by the public.
This problem of potentially punishing innocent athletes is inherent to the WADA Code and not limited to Kenya.
Says the weirdo who always posts under unregistered four or five letter lazily randomized usernames and then pretends that it's not obvious to even some of the imbeciles here that you're the same weirdo every time.
You have a mental illness. My heart sort of goes out to you. You must be miserable in your paranoid schizophrenia.
A lot of evidence was ‘adjusted’ so Berardelli could continue to manufacture “success” for Kenya. How many more different blood testing machines has he installed at his camp? Kisorio, Jeruto, Enkiru and others under Berardelli’s “tutalege” all suspended. But Berardelli isn’t involved. 🤣🤡
You're absolutely right - some of the Kenyan runners know exactly what they're doing, but there are many who don't really know what they're doing and they're not looking past their nose with regard to getting an advantage in any shape or form and many of them are gullible. I've been to Kenya several times and I've seen everything with my own eyes. If you as a white man (Mzungu ) - show up in Kenya and go to a town in the Rift Valley and tell an unsuspecting runner "take this vitamin it will help you run faster" - they will take it without any hesitation.
So you're saying that we should just let Kenya carry on pillaging the sport because a lot of their athletes are stupid?
It certainly seems like you're saying that.
I'm not saying that, and Kenyan athletics or AKA is on the case - delivering severe punishments to people who were caught for doping so there is a knock-on effect which is happening now and which is dissuading many runners and even their managers from crossing the line.
Will it ever be perfect? of course not - but things are moving in the right direction, I think.
I have an issue with Kenyan runners who are punished for ingesting substances unknowingly but it's difficult to differentiate between those who willingly took stuff and those who didn't and so it's a tricky thing to deal with from the authorities, but nevertheless it presents a dilemma.
The best athletes are probably squeaky clean people like Geoffrey Kamworor - who have been going for 10 years or more despite numerous tests. On the Ethiopian side I'm putting Kejelcha, Barega, Gebrhiwet, etc ...in the same clean group. I can't comment about the Ethiopian wonder kids 19- 20 years old popping a 2:04:00 out of nothing, but one has to assume they are clean.
Kenzi Mizoguchi's classic film "Utamaro and His Five Women" tells the tale of Japanese printmaker Utamaro, a real historical person. He falls out of favor with Japanese government officials in the 18th century because he creates a series of prints that offends on of them. So they bind his hands for fifty days to prevent him from creating prints. It's the worst form of torture. When his hands are finally free, the first thing he does is start creating prints.
Coevett, what do you think should happen in these cases? No, I don't think it is a good things that banned athletes become depressed, but these banned athletes I strongly feel should not be able to return to the world of sport in either a competitive or support role. Yes, inadvertent consumption happens, yes, false positives happen, so I acknowledge it is a tough call. But, I believe and I think that the evidence supports that doping gives life long benefits, so even inadvertent use confers an unfair life long advantage.
A 10 year ban for Kenya would be the best thing to happen plus a 10 year ban for any agent/coach who has made a living off coaching Kenyan athletes. The culture of cheating and doping is so entrenched in the nation that you have to wipe it out with a generational ban. The Kenyan athletes and their agents have zero reason to complain or get depressed as they can always enter things like the Enhanced Games; they are not being prevented from competing in sports.
A lot of evidence was ‘adjusted’ so Berardelli could continue to manufacture “success” for Kenya. How many more different blood testing machines has he installed at his camp? Kisorio, Jeruto, Enkiru and others under Berardelli’s “tutalege” all suspended. But Berardelli isn’t involved. 🤣🤡
You refer to "a lot of evidence" as if there was a lot, but according to the judge, there was no evidence to "adjust" that showed Berardelli was involved.
In fact the CAS ruled that Jeptoo received EPO from her own doctor, whose visits were kept hidden from the coach and manager.
I don't know if Berardelli ever had even one blood testing machine. The only machine blood testing machine I'm aware of was Rosa's, not Berardelli's, and Berardelli's contract with Rosa was terminated shortly after the case of Jeptoo.
Coevett, what do you think should happen in these cases? No, I don't think it is a good things that banned athletes become depressed, but these banned athletes I strongly feel should not be able to return to the world of sport in either a competitive or support role. Yes, inadvertent consumption happens, yes, false positives happen, so I acknowledge it is a tough call. But, I believe and I think that the evidence supports that doping gives life long benefits, so even inadvertent use confers an unfair life long advantage.
A 10 year ban for Kenya would be the best thing to happen plus a 10 year ban for any agent/coach who has made a living off coaching Kenyan athletes. The culture of cheating and doping is so entrenched in the nation that you have to wipe it out with a generational ban. The Kenyan athletes and their agents have zero reason to complain or get depressed as they can always enter things like the Enhanced Games; they are not being prevented from competing in sports.
A 10 year ban for Kenya, just like what happened to the ban meted out to Russia from international sports, despite the fact that many international Russian athletes were unjustly punished, would be very bad thing for the sport of running and Kenya in general.
