it's been said on this board a thousand times. Eventually PED will become as much as a part of training and racing as intervals & spikes.
Just like everyone lost their minds when some athletes wanted to be paid, eventually everyone accepted it. (They were called cheaters and DQ'd too.)
Some Joker You Don't Know wrote:
I think it was a lame response by Ritz.
By agreeing with the statement, he's basically implying that foreigners are all dirty and Americans are all clean.
How does he know the foreigners are dirty? How does he know our top marathoners are clean?
For that matter, how do we know Ritz is clean? Running 27:45 and getting your ass kicked by a bunch of Africans isn't evidence of anything other than that he got his ass kicked. After all the hype over the years, Ritz is less than 30 seconds faster than Wejo (no disrespect to Wejo intended).
Ritz needs to stop making excuses for himself and just be patient and keep training and racing. And maybe get as serious as the Africans about running (I guarantee that no African would get a lame injury from playing soccer with a dog). In a couple years he could be at the front of those track 10000m races.
If anything, I think we are less competitive in the marathon than we are at 10k. So what if some guys did okay at Boston? Can anyone in the US, other than Meb and KK run 2:06? The top marathoners are running Chicago, Berlin, Tokyo, Rotterdam, etc. A few guys in the top 5 at Boston doesn't mean any more than our showing in the Prefontaine 2 mile. Yeah Goucher, Lincoln, and Tegenkamp kicked ass but if the field were loaded with the Golden League 5k stars, they would have all been back in 10th - 15th place...
And I'm sure if you were in the race you would've kicked all of the African's asses, instead of the other way around, right? When you run under 27:45 then you can talk.
Typical letsrun.com poster, which is unfortunate...
Foreign competitors are less likely to use illegal performance-enhancing drugs in the marathon, making it easier for Americans to compete, since Americans are likely to do drugs. Do you agree?
How much testing goes on at road races, especially marathons? My opinion has always been that road racing is dirtier...more dopers, less controls. But maybe I am wrong. Are than any elites who could say what goes on...especially at sub major level races - not Chicago, NY, etc...
OVerall his articles are pretty competent, but John Meyer acts like more of a knowlegeable track insider than he really is.
I don't agree with this theory at all. With proper hydration and the correct workouts, training in the heat boosts plasma volume it doesn't decrease it. So, wouldn't that compliment some mild to moderate blood boosting?
One thing about EPO: It thickens the blood. Which can cause overheating, thus EPO and hot weather marathons are not a good combo. This perhaps, is why championship marathons are such a crap shoot, the weather and lack of drugs upsets the apple cart.
disenchanted wrote:
Wejo,
Didn't you read Canova's comments on that. Elite runners are not helped by EPO at the marathon distance, or the Tour de France. It was one of the funniest thing I have ever read in my life. 2nd only to the pople defending the statements.
Wow does someone have a link to this post. So all the cyclists are just doping because of the placebo effect?
You are right, just keep the plasma volume up. Look at the craziness going on in cycling. It sounds like they got this thing down to an EPO/blood doping system analogous to a crack house. In that world it is just what you do to compete at that level. Perhaps running has not reached that level.
If you were capable of busting a 2:08 marathon and you were fairly confident that EPO or classical blood doping would get you to 2:04, what would you do? Dime a dozen sub 2:10 guy or multi-millionaire world best. Perhaps even the rationalization that you need to feed your family even kicks in. I doubt a single stone goes unturned in achieveing that level. Altitude tents and high altitude training does provide other options that perhaps WADA would like to limit and perhaps shift the tide entirely to artificial means.
I was kind of interested in the cycling community that they were using the classic doping scenario and perhaps some with the money could afford the "cleaner" EPO use. I imagine the old doping method is cheaper and more accessible than EPO.
Denver Runner wrote:
Some Joker You Don't Know wrote:I think it was a lame response by Ritz.
By agreeing with the statement, he's basically implying that foreigners are all dirty and Americans are all clean.
How does he know the foreigners are dirty? How does he know our top marathoners are clean?
For that matter, how do we know Ritz is clean? Running 27:45 and getting your ass kicked by a bunch of Africans isn't evidence of anything other than that he got his ass kicked. After all the hype over the years, Ritz is less than 30 seconds faster than Wejo (no disrespect to Wejo intended).
Ritz needs to stop making excuses for himself and just be patient and keep training and racing. And maybe get as serious as the Africans about running (I guarantee that no African would get a lame injury from playing soccer with a dog). In a couple years he could be at the front of those track 10000m races.
If anything, I think we are less competitive in the marathon than we are at 10k. So what if some guys did okay at Boston? Can anyone in the US, other than Meb and KK run 2:06? The top marathoners are running Chicago, Berlin, Tokyo, Rotterdam, etc. A few guys in the top 5 at Boston doesn't mean any more than our showing in the Prefontaine 2 mile. Yeah Goucher, Lincoln, and Tegenkamp kicked ass but if the field were loaded with the Golden League 5k stars, they would have all been back in 10th - 15th place...
And I'm sure if you were in the race you would've kicked all of the African's asses, instead of the other way around, right? When you run under 27:45 then you can talk.
Typical letsrun.com poster, which is unfortunate...
And you are typical with your "when you can run under 27:45 then you can talk." attitude.
What I would do in a race against Africans isn't important. Ritz is responsible for his own performances. And yes, he got his butt kicked. And no, I don't think it's because they're all on drugs and he isn't. My point is shut up about drugs, keep training, and one day you'll be there. I don't think 27:45 is bad at all within a month of 27:35 for a person as young as him. He could be one of the best not too far from now. Getting beat when you're on the way up is part of the game. To throw drugs out there as a reason is lame. It looks like the reporter put words in his mouth but he should stand up for his fellow athletes when the D word comes out. One day it could be him running 26:50 and some 27:45 guy says he is dirty...
wejo wrote:
disenchanted wrote:Wejo,
Didn't you read Canova's comments on that. Elite runners are not helped by EPO at the marathon distance, or the Tour de France. It was one of the funniest thing I have ever read in my life. 2nd only to the pople defending the statements.
Wow does someone have a link to this post. So all the cyclists are just doping because of the placebo effect?
It was the thread roughly named "Canova recommends webb run 5k". Somehow it turned into a drug thread, at which point Canova said EPO wouldn't help ELITE endurance athletes, just the mediocre ones. At this point he claimed that the strong climbers at the tour were not good climbers because of endurance but rather brute strength. I was sure someone had hijacked his name but was corrected. I now have a lot of notes I took on Canova being used as coasters.
Weldon,
Did you see the recent apology letter by the American cyclist in various mags? He does a credible job of explaining why he used EPO.
Sev told me YEARS ago after Barcelona tha Hermans explained how athletes avoided the dehydration danger by using blood thinners on top of EPO..
Frankly, I think the new versions of EPO are so advanced that we are talking about antedeluvian stuff on this board. The chemists are way ahead of the testers.
As you know, Weldn, marathon training is all about the preparation; therefore, EPO and its variants can boost recovery during this period and then the athlete can halt his or her use and test completely clean.
Another thought: EPO might benefit aerobic events more than the 800 or mile. So the full or half Mary or even 5000m stands to be more tempting for EPO users. that said, look at doubtful Marion and other fully guilty sprinters that admitted to EPO use for a damn full out anaerobic event !!!
From John Meyer:
Everybody calm down.
My theory is pure speculation, and pretty much we're all speculating on doping. It's a theory based on the fact that two Americans -- two exceptional American runners, to be sure -- were able to medal in the Athens marathons and that some highly touted marathoners performed poorly. That suggested to me there was a more level playing field, that perhaps it was a clean race. I asked myself why that might be, because I saw track performances in Athens that I found highly suspicious, which suggested to me that cheaters are still able to beat doping tests at the Olympics. The only explanation that made sense to me was that using EPO in extreme heat is extremely dangerous because dehydration reduces blood volume and thickens the blood -- which can cause strokes -- and perhaps the dirty docs were unwilling to administer it for that reason. Perhaps. Maybe. Possibly.
I've run this by more than a few big-name runners, coaches, etc. Most think it's a decent theory.
I don't mean this in any way to diminish what Deena and Meb did in Athens. Indeed, it may be they showed what great American runners can do in a race without cheaters.
I should have added in the previous post: there are other reasons many people believe the marathon is the best opportunity for Americans to medal in the Olympics and world championships, beyond what doping may or may not be going on. Included in that is sports science, training methods, all sorts of things.
And ... Beijing figures to be very hot and very humid.
Yes it is very interesting that they would choose, in my opinion, a much higher risk method over rhEPO. I ask myself Why? because there must be a reason and I don't believe it to be financial. "They" can easily afford it. I agree that running is still lightyears behind other sports when it comes to manipulating blood. This is likely because so many clean athletes have great success.
This is a reasonable theory, but there could be several reasons behind the success of Americans in the Olympic marathon. This site complains all the time about road racers, especially those from African countries, not getting tested. It seems the drug testing gap between the Olympics and other major marathons could be another reason Americans might do better. Only clean athletes (or those who have better drugs or doctors) can pass the tests. Track athletes, on the other hand, might not see much of a change in testing between normal track meets and the Olympics (I could be wrong about this).Finally, the financial incentive might not be there. Why run waste one of your 2, 3, or 4 marathons per year on a race that doesn't offer prize money or appearance fees? Track athletes, meanwhile, can run dozens of races each year.
John Meyer wrote:
From John Meyer:
Everybody calm down.
My theory is pure speculation, and pretty much we're all speculating on doping. It's a theory based on the fact that two Americans -- two exceptional American runners, to be sure -- were able to medal in the Athens marathons and that some highly touted marathoners performed poorly. That suggested to me there was a more level playing field, that perhaps it was a clean race. I asked myself why that might be, because I saw track performances in Athens that I found highly suspicious, which suggested to me that cheaters are still able to beat doping tests at the Olympics. The only explanation that made sense to me was that using EPO in extreme heat is extremely dangerous because dehydration reduces blood volume and thickens the blood -- which can cause strokes -- and perhaps the dirty docs were unwilling to administer it for that reason. Perhaps. Maybe. Possibly.
I've run this by more than a few big-name runners, coaches, etc. Most think it's a decent theory.
I don't mean this in any way to diminish what Deena and Meb did in Athens. Indeed, it may be they showed what great American runners can do in a race without cheaters.
I don't believe this for a second. "Foreigners" dominate cycling, are starting to take over swimming (and anyone remember Inga de Bruijn's growing mandible?), and now seem to own long distance triathlon. I saw Nina Kraft finish that day and she was FAST.
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/7200.0.html
If there's a dollar, there's a doper.
disenchanted wrote:
Wejo,
Didn't you read Canova's comments on that. Elite runners are not helped by EPO at the marathon distance, or the Tour de France. It was one of the funniest thing I have ever read in my life. 2nd only to the pople defending the statements.
And YOUR experience with elite athletes is....????
I'd take his opinion over a no-name asswipe like yourself anyday of the week.
He implied that Americans are more likely to use drugs in the marathon than the foreigners.
why can't everyone accept the fact that the africans are great runners? No one was complaining when the americans were on top. The best athletes in the NFL, and NBA are black whose ancestors are from africa. I do not see anyone complaining about them. Everything great is not american.