Just Kenya 2.0. only on the sprint side. Just like with Tebogo, all the Africans are doping, but only Kenya tests (poorly) which catches a fraction of those doping. Little testing in Epiopia, Uganda or Botswana yet. ALL of Africa should be banned, just like Russia - as all countries have state sponsored doping programs. Mind you Oceania (Aussie,NZ), Europe, UK, and Jamaica ( likely Canada as well as it is a commie country these days), all dope with impunity as well. Why is it that the only honest people in the world are Americans? Shelby was railroaded, and I don't consider blacks or others as real Americans.
Agreed, most if not all Africans and Indians should be banned . Canucks are basically commies or "loyalists". The Euros and "islanders" Idk.
And I also don't consider most "whites" or most people in America "real" Americans unless they have ancestors from the 1600s, like mine. You're probably some kind of Kraut WWII baby or something, lucky to be here.
Just Kenya 2.0. only on the sprint side. Just like with Tebogo, all the Africans are doping, but only Kenya tests (poorly) which catches a fraction of those doping. Little testing in Epiopia, Uganda or Botswana yet. ALL of Africa should be banned, just like Russia - as all countries have state sponsored doping programs. Mind you Oceania (Aussie,NZ), Europe, UK, and Jamaica ( likely Canada as well as it is a commie country these days), all dope with impunity as well. Why is it that the only honest people in the world are Americans? Shelby was railroaded, and I don't consider blacks or others as real Americans.
Y'all keep saying this but LR literally did an article saying AIU were testing in Ethiopia just like in Kenya but they aren't testing positive like Kenya. Also Kenya isn't catching anyone; AIU is.
I was discussing this with several other coaches today. I think it’s a combo of many things. We have lost what’s important in America. Our best U20 prospects only want to be courted by big schools with flashy visits, bright lights, fancy weight rooms and all the glitz and glamour associated with college recruiting these days. Then it’s a race to spend hours making TikTok and Instagrams posts about how important they are and they only care about the things that really don’t matter. If you could see where these Botswanans and South Africans train, the quality of the facilities, the training they do and how they live you would understand. None of the crap these American kids value is important to them. They train hard - train to win. trust their coach, trust the process and have patience. They don’t require or ask for all the things our own kids demand. It’s not shiny and fancy, it’s real and it works and kids are hungry. Look at the success of the Jamaican team - almost all based in Jamaica with Jamaican coaches…no fancy facilities, no BS hype - just hard work and focus on what matters. We have an entitlement problem, a toughness problem, a values problem and simply concern ourselves with the wrong things. Team USA are just lucky to have 330 million people to draw from - with that many we luck into a true champion sometimes. But it’s a numbers game. Is America reallly developing talent compared to Botswana and Jamaica, or do we just hit with literally 100x ++ the chances?
Not sure we fully understand the gravity of what we witnessed in the mens 400m semi-finals earlier today.
Botswana pulling some "Team USA circa '90's tomfoolery and have 3 men in the final of the 400m. Even though this was quite commonplace in the 90's (where team USA I believe had 3 men in the final of the 400m for the 5 WC's in that decade), it hasn't been done in 18 years or 8 editions of the world champs. The last time it was done was in 2007 when the USA team of Wariner, Merritt and Angelo Taylor went 1-2-3.
That was crazy though, including the 10th fastest time in history from semi-final 2 from Kebinatshipi who ran 43.61 only nose breathing apparently which is the fastest non-finals performance in history.
Last year in Paris the Botswanian team also came from nowhere to push the US team to an Olympic record only 0.14 off the WR from 1993 with themselves running the 3rd fastest time ever run at 2.54.53. But this year they are going to at least sub in Eppie, second in the first semi, for Pesela and will likely have Tebogo again at their disposal.
I think we are going to see the WR obliterated by Botswana in the final.
Not sure about the WR, but I would love to read up on how Botswana has achieved this. It is one of the wealthier African countries albeit with somewhat high unemployment. It is also one of the worlds most sparsely populated countries (3.4 million people in about 225K sq miles--that is just a bit smaller than Texas that has 31M+ people).
Just Kenya 2.0. only on the sprint side. Just like with Tebogo, all the Africans are doping, but only Kenya tests (poorly) which catches a fraction of those doping. Little testing in Epiopia, Uganda or Botswana yet. ALL of Africa should be banned, just like Russia - as all countries have state sponsored doping programs. Mind you Oceania (Aussie,NZ), Europe, UK, and Jamaica ( likely Canada as well as it is a commie country these days), all dope with impunity as well. Why is it that the only honest people in the world are Americans? Shelby was railroaded, and I don't consider blacks or others as real Americans.
I'm going to ignore this post because it was obviously made in bad faith but I'm going to piggyback off this general sentiment because I've seen a lot of people asking about Botswana in the past 24 hours and apparently i've been the only person paying attention to them the past few years.
Botswana has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher standard of living and median wealth compared to like... every other country in Africa. The reasons aren't particularly important to this post but it's very important to note because similar talent exists in much of west Africa but only a country like Botswana, who doesn't have a majority of their population living in extreme poverty, can take advantage of that talent.
This "sudden" rise in Batswana dominance in the 400 is nearly a decade in development. Lets start at the beginning - Isaac Makwala. He was(and I think still is) the only man to run under 44 and 20 seconds on the same day, but fell short of international stardom. Still, he laid the path for everything that followed and showed what was possible.
In 2016, Baboloki Thebe and Karabo Sibana became their first U20 stars in the 400, both running 44.2, although they never really made a huge impact on the international stage, with their major wins being limited to regional championships (Thebe did go on to run 44.02). Still though - two juniors running 44.2. That's pretty nasty, and gave the country important experience with developing high-level junior talent.
Over the next several years, Botswana 400m running would go through a stagnation that wouldn't really change until after the pandemic with the rise of a new generation, led by talented junior Anthony Pesela. Pesela, alongside a bunch of other names you might recognize, namely Zibane Ngozi, Legundo Scotch, and Bayapo Ndori, would win a bronze medal in the 2021 Olympic 4x400.
This medal was a really big deal. It showed that they could compete at the top level, sticking it to the best in the world without a single man running under 44 seconds that year. Botswana usually takes post-Olympic years as easy years, and 2022 reflected that, but in 2023 they prepared for the ramp up to the Olympics and it was reflected in their athletes development. The new generation of Ndori, Tebogo, Kebinatshipi, and Scotch all ran under 45 seconds.
2024 showed the fruits of the past Olympic cycle. Ndori went from 44.6 to 44.1, Kebinatshipi, still a u20, went from 44.8 to 44.2, ect. After a few off years even Pesela joined them under 45, and a whole host of other guys ran low 45s.
Now in 2025 is it any wonder. Botswana has one of, if not THE premier 400 squad in the world after all of that?
To conclude, here are some of the reasons we are where we are:
1. More than a decade of experience in 400 meter development at the junior and senior level. This really, really matters, more than you can imagine. High level sprints are f*cking difficult to coach to success at championships.
2. Rejection of the NCAA system. The NCAA system sucks for basically anyone out of the US - Joe Fahn, Shaun, and Louie Hinchliffe just to name a few guys from recent years. These guys staying home and training together under a homegrown system designed for their environment and resources allowed them to develop perfectly.
3. Star power, from guys like Makwala and Tebogo that led the way - Tebogo especially with his Olympic gold. You guys think its bad now? Watch what happens when this second generation that was inspired by Tebogo hits the world stage.
Is it the NCAA system or being so far from home is a vastly different culture? I have met a few African (and East Asian) college students in my years (especially the several I spent as a college administrator). While none were athletes, they all talked about how difficult it was being so far from home and their culture. That sort of thing could weigh on them and damage performance.
I'm going to ignore this post because it was obviously made in bad faith but I'm going to piggyback off this general sentiment because I've seen a lot of people asking about Botswana in the past 24 hours and apparently i've been the only person paying attention to them the past few years.
Botswana has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher standard of living and median wealth compared to like... every other country in Africa. The reasons aren't particularly important to this post but it's very important to note because similar talent exists in much of west Africa but only a country like Botswana, who doesn't have a majority of their population living in extreme poverty, can take advantage of that talent.
This "sudden" rise in Batswana dominance in the 400 is nearly a decade in development. Lets start at the beginning - Isaac Makwala. He was(and I think still is) the only man to run under 44 and 20 seconds on the same day, but fell short of international stardom. Still, he laid the path for everything that followed and showed what was possible.
In 2016, Baboloki Thebe and Karabo Sibana became their first U20 stars in the 400, both running 44.2, although they never really made a huge impact on the international stage, with their major wins being limited to regional championships (Thebe did go on to run 44.02). Still though - two juniors running 44.2. That's pretty nasty, and gave the country important experience with developing high-level junior talent.
Over the next several years, Botswana 400m running would go through a stagnation that wouldn't really change until after the pandemic with the rise of a new generation, led by talented junior Anthony Pesela. Pesela, alongside a bunch of other names you might recognize, namely Zibane Ngozi, Legundo Scotch, and Bayapo Ndori, would win a bronze medal in the 2021 Olympic 4x400.
This medal was a really big deal. It showed that they could compete at the top level, sticking it to the best in the world without a single man running under 44 seconds that year. Botswana usually takes post-Olympic years as easy years, and 2022 reflected that, but in 2023 they prepared for the ramp up to the Olympics and it was reflected in their athletes development. The new generation of Ndori, Tebogo, Kebinatshipi, and Scotch all ran under 45 seconds.
2024 showed the fruits of the past Olympic cycle. Ndori went from 44.6 to 44.1, Kebinatshipi, still a u20, went from 44.8 to 44.2, ect. After a few off years even Pesela joined them under 45, and a whole host of other guys ran low 45s.
Now in 2025 is it any wonder. Botswana has one of, if not THE premier 400 squad in the world after all of that?
To conclude, here are some of the reasons we are where we are:
1. More than a decade of experience in 400 meter development at the junior and senior level. This really, really matters, more than you can imagine. High level sprints are f*cking difficult to coach to success at championships.
2. Rejection of the NCAA system. The NCAA system sucks for basically anyone out of the US - Joe Fahn, Shaun, and Louie Hinchliffe just to name a few guys from recent years. These guys staying home and training together under a homegrown system designed for their environment and resources allowed them to develop perfectly.
3. Star power, from guys like Makwala and Tebogo that led the way - Tebogo especially with his Olympic gold. You guys think its bad now? Watch what happens when this second generation that was inspired by Tebogo hits the world stage.
Is it the NCAA system or being so far from home is a vastly different culture? I have met a few African (and East Asian) college students in my years (especially the several I spent as a college administrator). While none were athletes, they all talked about how difficult it was being so far from home and their culture. That sort of thing could weigh on them and damage performance.
Both have an effect but in my opinion is it primarily the NCAA system. Brutal training and competition schedules geared specifically towards 4 years of indoor and outdoor championship appearances in March and May. Coaches get paid based on their conference and national results, so it is in their best interest to get every last drop of talent out to win at those. This is done at the expense of the athlete's longevity.
The NCAA alum we have right now on the international stage are the eggs that survived getting smashed against the wall. For every world championship finalist our schools produce 6 others burn out of the system.
I'll give the NCAA and American HS system credit where it is due - there is no better system in the world for discovering talent. But if we had the European club system or African/Jamaican philosophy of development... we would never loose, ever.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
I was discussing this with several other coaches today. I think it’s a combo of many things. We have lost what’s important in America. Our best U20 prospects only want to be courted by big schools with flashy visits, bright lights, fancy weight rooms and all the glitz and glamour associated with college recruiting these days. Then it’s a race to spend hours making TikTok and Instagrams posts about how important they are and they only care about the things that really don’t matter. If you could see where these Botswanans and South Africans train, the quality of the facilities, the training they do and how they live you would understand. None of the crap these American kids value is important to them. They train hard - train to win. trust their coach, trust the process and have patience. They don’t require or ask for all the things our own kids demand. It’s not shiny and fancy, it’s real and it works and kids are hungry. Look at the success of the Jamaican team - almost all based in Jamaica with Jamaican coaches…no fancy facilities, no BS hype - just hard work and focus on what matters. We have an entitlement problem, a toughness problem, a values problem and simply concern ourselves with the wrong things. Team USA are just lucky to have 330 million people to draw from - with that many we luck into a true champion sometimes. But it’s a numbers game. Is America reallly developing talent compared to Botswana and Jamaica, or do we just hit with literally 100x ++ the chances?
Well said. +100 to every point you made. I agree entirely.
Not sure we fully understand the gravity of what we witnessed in the mens 400m semi-finals earlier today.
Botswana pulling some "Team USA circa '90's tomfoolery and have 3 men in the final of the 400m. Even though this was quite commonplace in the 90's (where team USA I believe had 3 men in the final of the 400m for the 5 WC's in that decade), it hasn't been done in 18 years or 8 editions of the world champs. The last time it was done was in 2007 when the USA team of Wariner, Merritt and Angelo Taylor went 1-2-3.
That was crazy though, including the 10th fastest time in history from semi-final 2 from Kebinatshipi who ran 43.61 only nose breathing apparently which is the fastest non-finals performance in history.
Last year in Paris the Botswanian team also came from nowhere to push the US team to an Olympic record only 0.14 off the WR from 1993 with themselves running the 3rd fastest time ever run at 2.54.53. But this year they are going to at least sub in Eppie, second in the first semi, for Pesela and will likely have Tebogo again at their disposal.
I think we are going to see the WR obliterated by Botswana in the final.
Not even the whole country of Botswana. Don’t all of there best just come out of one region?
Not sure about the WR, but I would love to read up on how Botswana has achieved this. It is one of the wealthier African countries albeit with somewhat high unemployment. It is also one of the worlds most sparsely populated countries (3.4 million people in about 225K sq miles--that is just a bit smaller than Texas that has 31M+ people).
It was remarkable and good showing 1-3-8.
Well all I know is this. Last year that team came within a quarter second of the WR and they are a better team this year.
I have a feeling that winning the 4x4 and breaking the WR is really something that Botswana wants to do. They just ran 2.57.7 quite comfortably in the heats with Tebogo looking good and they didn't even start their best guy (who just won the world title in 43.5)
Not all of them. But I remember some Big, Big names like Nijel Amos and Amantle Montsho. Remember that Amos ran 1:41 13 years ago without wavelights, without actual shoes without bicarbonate, at 17 years old. He didn't have at that time a proper arm movement. And between 800m rounds, he could ran a 43.8 4x4 leg.