Is this legit on Marius Bakken's high school training?

Middle Distance Runner wrote:

And I realize that we're talking about a very successful program here, one that did indeed yield lots of great performances. But I wonder how many casualties there were along the way, guys who would have been great in college but were ruined.

From Coe/Martin, Better Training for Distance Runners

"The coach-athlete relationship ought to exist with the aim of long-term benefit to the athlete (i.e., post-high school, post-collegiate) rather than solely immediate benefit (gratification of school or college via the coach's win-loss record). Demanding pressures placed on young athletes to perform at their maximum too often can be more debilitating to the spirit than beneficial to improvement. And they can produce injury."

I also wonder about the training that has been posted here that York does. Newton seems to violate the recommendations of every exercise physiologist who researches these areas. I wonder if York wins in spite of Newton's training rather than because of his training. With 130 runners on his team, it is not too difficult to find 7 runners with raw talent. I've never seen a team with more than about 40 runners. York has 40+ runners per class. Obviously Newton does an outstanding job in recruiting runners in the school. It seems to me that a having a pool of runners that large to choose from makes success inevitable, regardless of training style. Also, there is no way that 130 runners from age 14 to 19, some who have never run before and some who have run for years, should be doing the identical workouts, especially that high of mileage and 5 days per week of intervals. If ALL the runners are actually doing these workouts like someone stated, then there is definitely a problem with Newton's training.

Success IN SPITE of Newton?? wrote:

From Coe/Martin, Better Training for Distance Runners

"The coach-athlete relationship ought to exist with the aim of long-term benefit to the athlete (i.e., post-high school, post-collegiate) rather than solely immediate benefit (gratification of school or college via the coach's win-loss record). Demanding pressures placed on young athletes to perform at their maximum too often can be more debilitating to the spirit than beneficial to improvement. And they can produce injury."

ironic, when you consider that he had his son running hard about 5 times a week...

i have no connection at all with newton or midwest running at all so i hope my opinion qualifies as neutral. i did see him speak at a clinic 10 years ago and own 2 of his books. in any case, i have a few observations:

1. you can slam his traiing programs as being too intense, but how can you argue with 20+ state titles? sorry,but there are no mass graves out backof york high where broken and exploited runners were buried after his training destroyed them.

plus, you can cringe at 25x440, but how fast are they really running it? i did 25x440 at 1:45 yesterday, with zero recovery, am i going to burn out? what i am saying is, joe newton leaves a lot out when he describes training in his book (the amazing workouts of a soon-to-be world class runner notwithstanding). i submit, that maybe it is POSSIBLE that all these workouts are not as hard as they appear to be on the surface.

2. i find it laughable that anyone suggests that joe newton is exploiting these kids. i have never heard anyone express any regrets about winning a state title in any sport. you can use peter coe's quote against joe newton if you want, but coe is one of newton's biggest fans. by the way, the book you are quoting from has some damned sick workout schedules in it as well.

3. a lot of kids go to college and lose interest in running, regardless of how good they were. he's not ruining anyone for college. if you want to run, you run. these kids may bust their asses, but they are no one's victim.

Well said, outsider. Listen, here is how it works. The frosh come in and do far less workouts thant the upperclass runners. Those few who show real talent and drive might get a bit of a boost in their training in order to keep their fires going. Newton is aware of good runners as early as 7th or 8th grades. My kids were invited to his summer running program before they entered high school and that summer (between 8th and 9th grades) they ran around 360 miles total (next summer, 1035; then 1311, and finally 1100). With their talent and drive they just worked harder and harder so Joe bumped them into workouts with some older runners. But not every frosh did that. Sure, some join for the team cameraderie and have little intention of being top runners. But they stick it out and lkeave with skills and memories. Team 6 runners (there are 6 training teams) are running basically to stay in shape, ie. shot putters, and the like- but even they run as hard as they can.

I've heard the Newton burnout thing for years. It is just not true. We keep forgetting that running will not be everyone's life once they leave hs. My kids love running but at age 23 and not with world class talent, what do they do? They coach. This year, Jim Akita is an automatic qualifier in d3 at both 5 and 10k (14.26/30.37) and he ran with my kids. Sage is a phenom. Cioni has run at Princeton, Lucchesi was a fine runner for U Illinois, Roche is at Iowa, Palumbo is at Illinois, Marotta ran for Iowa, Hobbs is at Illinois, etc. etc. These were all top 7 runners and they all kept running.

All that Newton ever asks is that you do your best. Sage may run 25 quarters at less than 70 pace, but not everyone else does. They just do their best. His attitude is that for those that will not run when they leave HS, he has given them training and skills that will help them through life and has given them memories to cherish. Those that continue to run find college training less of a challenge than those who have not worked as hard, and they have a work ethic second to none. My son was frustrated during his captainship at Grinnell to find runners who were late to practice and did not take it seriously. That never happens at York.

Newton and Coe are indeed friends. He has Peter Coe out to talk to the team every year or so. Coe finds much to admire with Joe's approach and when he talks of how he trained his son, the runners are in awe of how hard Seb worked- harder than they did and they work hard.

In 47 years as a coach, Newton has won 22 state titles and finished 2nd an additional 19 times. He has never finished lower than 5th and IL is a very tough running state. Find me any other coach like that. We only have 2 classes for the entire state as well. Why do kids run with him- tradition. He is a tough coach- his rules are simple. You do not miss practice. Ever (save for death, illness, or one college visit per senior season). Not for vacation, not for family parties. You keep your hair trimmed, no bears or mustaches, no jewelry. Race day you wear a sport coat and tie. You shake the coach's hand before you leave practice. You must have a C average weekly (as opposed to all other sports where this is on a term basis). Violate a rule and you are off the team. No one breaks the rules. I am an old hippie, but his way works for him. He is old school as they come. He couldn't change if he wanted to- and he doesn't use computers, and usually can't find his car keys. But he will sit there at meets and cheer on the runners from even the opposing teams. With his bellow.

Hey, bears can run too!

Har har, I meant beards, not bears. An dI sur eknow bears can run; I got chased by one once. Not fun!

Note from my son in an email from him today:

>>And I got home to discover a letter to me from Mr. Newton of all people,

congratulating me on being a track coach. >>

5 years later and he takes the time to write.

greenliner..I know we have been down this road before and I have a lot of respect for you..

But look at the supposed training:

4 x a mile atrting at 4:45 with 30 seconds recovery?? down to 4:18 in fall of his senior year when he came in as a 4:34 converted 1500 guy???

I'm sorry I Have a very tough time swallowing that as written...

30 seconds rest???come on now..and a 4:18 on the end??

All I can say is that it is true, hard as it is to believe. I can't say any more than that. For most of that season I was at every meet, attended a lot of practices and saw most of what Marius did. I saw his 4x mile, since the top guys were running it that day. We were dumbstruck. He was such a phenom at the time. I think only 2 other runners that year broke 9 min in the 3200 and they were both Meade, OR runners under Pat Tyson- Micah Davis and Sky Detray (sp?). Just remember, Marius is a bit unusual. But honestly, it all happened.

Newton has had 4 top stars over the past 20 or so years: Ron Craker, Jim White, Marius and Don Sage. Donald is already something like a 7-time All American. But there is some eight grader in Elmhurst who I am told is running a sub-430 mile so who knows who else is coming. And Sean McNamara, a soph, has run a 9.21/4.24 3200/1600 double already this year. He was all state in xc this year as well.

Running is to Elmhurst what basketball is to small town Indiana. The assistant coach, Charlie Kern, is himself a 4.07 miler. Newton can barely walk, his knees are so bad. He ran every day for over 25 years, truth. And I mean every day. Now he swims. Man is 76 and looks 60.

King99

That 4x1600 workout is very well-known and spread through Illinois quite quickly after it happened. This was also before the Internet was really being used. Again, you have to essentially ignore his pre-York 1500 meter PR. I'm sure it was a very soft PR. Allegedly, Bakken was the junior national champ at the 800 meters in Norway before coming to the U.S. I do know if this is fact. However, consider that his best 800 was 1:56. Clearly, upon arriving at York, the level of competition he was up against increased and his training under Newton drastically increased.

That being said, although I do believe the times of the 1600 repeats, I think the rest is exaggerated. I had never heard of the rest being only 30 seconds until this post. A standard mile repeat rest of 4 minutes or so is more in line with what I have heard in regards to typical York mile repeats.

Also, Newton's training has clearly seen great rewards. However, it is clearly not a perfectly put together program. You aren't going to find a lot of coachs agreeing that 25x400 in August makes much sense. I do think that those types of work help reinforce the incredible amount of faith that Newton instills in his runners. Their mileage is quite high. However, the context is important. A 90 mile week at York is not the same as a 90 mile week at a division I college program. Not to take anything away from the York runners. But to get the impression that their volume and effort level mimics a program like Colorado, Stanford, or Wisconsin is not quite accurate.

greenmiler and morceli..excellent responses..Thank you...

Morceli, I also have never heard of mile repeats at that pace done with anything lless than either an agressive two lap jog at 4 minutes..or more like at least like5 minute shuffle jogs..

iTs the last repeat that is surprising ..running 4:18 while fatigued is a bit unbelievable for even a talented HS guy or beyond talented actually..even if his Mile/1600 PR was soft..he ran 4:07 best ever 1600 in HS right??This was in XC on the last or 4 1600 repeats??

A bit scary..from a talent perspective..and you have to even admit tough to believe..especially that other stuff the 30 second rest..that is a huge "No Way, No How"

Yo, Morceli. The 25 quarters was never done in August. That workout did not start until late September, so they were not doing it in big heat and humidity. Just to clarify. They built up to it.

And you make a good point. I do not wish to leave anyone with the idea that the York training was above college level training. It is not the same as D1 training in terms of intensity (it was never intended to be), and Don Sage will be the first to agree with me on this. But I can tell you that at D3, where my kids went, the training was mostly easier for them- they went from 100+ mile weeks down to 80 mile weeks and handled the shift quite easily. And their coaches were honestly happy to get York runners. They had wanted one for some time. My kids ran as well as they could. They left York with times like this: 800- 2.00; 1600-4.30, 3200-9.40; 3 mile-15.08. Not really all that fast. In college, they developed to just 4.04 in the 1500, around 8.50 or so in the 3k, 14.56 in 5k, 31.26 for 10k. XC were generally in the 26-27 min range for 8k, with a best of 25.12. And then, like I said, 1.12 for 20k and 2.37 for a marathon- 6.02 pace. These are not stupendous times, not truly competitive, but they loved what they did and gave it their all. Who could ask for more?

How many xc coaches like Newton exist? Paul Jorgenson at Flathead, Pat Tyson at Meade, Jeff Arbogast at Bingham? All these guys really make a difference in their runners. I know I am missing some so sorry to them. But they earn such loyalty. My kids' greatest desire is to try and develop a tradition for running wherever they coach like what York had.

Marius did the workout as described, so far as my memory remembers. But this was what, 7 years ago now? But, you know, we could always just email him and ask him to clarify. He has his own website, mariusbakken.com, and we could try to get him to clarify.

Like King99 points out, the correct recovery should be 3 minutes on the mile repeats (I sent all the workouts cited by mail - not sure if that mistake was made originally or when it was re-written). Most of these cross country workouts are also shown in the Newton books (with recoveries).

Marius

http://www.mariusbakken.com

Hey, I wonder if there is any way to get JK or Hadd or Malmo to comment on the York training program. Anyone know how to get them clued in to this thread? JK advocates high miles so I wonder what he might think of a York kind of program for high schoolers. What about Wejo and Rojo? C'mon guys, what do you think?

Also, can anyone comment on this: my son's friend John Aerni just competed in his first marathon in Cincinnati (Flying Pig marathon?) just a couple of weeks ago, and won it in a time of 2.27. How good a time is that for a novice D3 runner doing his first marathon? John was a D3 national qualifier in the 10k for a couple of years 2 and 3 years ago.

Marius thank you for clarification..I will say this even at 3 minutes recovery that is a major work load..great stuff for sure..thanks again..

You want my comments? Look, there are many readers here who lack any kind of perspective about training, and specifically, training at the higher levels. I don't see anything out of line with Bakken's training compared to others at his level. You guys want training? You should hear about what Billy McChesney used to do when he was in high school!

Bob Timmons at Wichita East was a fantastically great coach.

Is there any other coach who had 2 national record holders in the mile?

Archie San Romano Jr..... 4:12 (4:08 in open competition)

Jim Ryun................. 3:58 (3:55)

My recollection might be a little off on the times.

Timmons was very tight lipped about sharing anything about training. He would probably do it somewhat differently now, having the methods of others to compare since then.

A few days before one of the big invitational cross country meets Timmons had the A runners (top 7) run 50x 440 with a departure time of 3 minutes (< 2:00 rests). I think the longer rests actually make them much harder, and also not as beneficial, at least not for distances. They had a team time trial for the race the next day and one of the A guys lost his place from being tired, but that was just mid season anyway. Lots of training though. They had more intensity (it was hard) but didn't do the volume of Newton.

Thanks, Malmo. Appreciate your commenting!

I need to announce that there WAS a typo in his workouts. Whenever I copied and pasted the text I didn't catch that 30 second recov. was suppose to be 3 minutes in the Monday workout during CC. I apologize for the error and it has been fixed. They are also fixed in the book which you can now order.

47 years of coaching X 130 runners each year

Greenliner, why is it that out of these +6,000 runners all you are spouting about is Don Sage, your two D3 sons and a few others that none of us have heard of.

College does change things, but for all 5,992?