Reasons why Jakob Ingebrigtsen is drug-free

You’re making my point.

Many say that Jakob’s prep feats make his otherworldly abilities more reasonable.

I’m arguing that they aren’t nearly as special as many claim. Training and racing opportunities varying dramatically at the prep level around the world; the talent required to break a WR doesn’t.

It simply doesn’t make sense to me that Jakob is *this* much more talented than everyone else that has ever competed.

Was it WR talent combined with structured training from such a young age? As I said, I hope so.

Wealth is indeed relative, and the cost of living in Norway is on a scale that made the Ingebrigtsen family, at best, middle class before Jakob fully broke through—especially during his younger years. They poured everything into sports and didn't exactly have any financial muscle of any sort. Moreover, Norway is so transparent that it's beyond me how something like that could have been initiated in the time before Jakob became a big star.

Why are you so focused on his 800 m time? When was the last time he ran 800m?

And live a life in shame. It's easy to become wealthy in Norway, but not as easy to become a national hero. Norway is too small of a country for such a betrayal to be forgiven. The downside of having few national stars at the world-class level is that those who do exist are embraced even more warmly and almost become a part of the national identity. The betrayal is the contrast to this, which would have made it challenging for Jakob to continue living in Norway if he were to be exposed as a simple cheat.

You’re arguing in circles: you started by saying:

(1) the fact that he came from “one of the world’s richest countries” makes buying advantages less likely.

(2) A relative lack of wealth increases the incentive to cheat.

I disagreed with (1), believing that they ultimately had *more* means to cheat—even if they weren’t “rich.”

Now, you’re saying that not only were they actually not that wealthy (relatively speaking), but they also poured “everything” financially into the sport.

Surely this brings us back to (2): they now, according to your original claim, have *more* incentive to cheat.

Look, I’m not anti-Jakob but I try to be unbiased. You seem to be too far into the “Jakob is clean” camp to be objective here.

Poverty in developing countries is not just a relative lack of wealth. It is as profound as it can possibly be, and an extreme contrast to a typical life in richer countries.

We have free education in Norway. With his determination, only the sky would have been the limit if Jakob had chosen the educational path instead.

Yes, of course. Which serves to yet again undermine your own point. How meaningful is “incentive” to cheat if there is no means due to “profound” poverty?

Look, obviously cheating happens in both poor and rich countries. It is objectively easier, especially at the youth levels, to do so in a richer one.

Your point about racing a lot is a good one. Jakob is surely only increasing his chances of getting caught (*if* he were cheating) by doing so.

Your point about wealth vs. motivation to cheat is a bad one, particularly in Jakob’s circumstances.

That said, It’s clear to me that you’re not interested in an honest discussion. So I don’t see a point in continuing.

Who says there are no means? All it takes is a cynical agent offering a tailored plan in exchange for x percent of future earnings. Someone from poorer areas would have nothing to lose.

P.S. We simply disagree in a few areas, that's all. I'm responding to you respectfully and on the topic.

If you are at the level to break one of the strongest distance records being a child prodigy or extremely-extremely talented is a prerequisite. Doping only does so much. It doesn't really tell you anything. You can't take someone with average talent and dope them to a world record in distance running.

I think the question that always brings this back to reality is; how much faster do you think he could go if he started doping?

I've followed Nordic skiing long enough to know that Norwegians are not squeaky clean. They are flexing pretty hard in triathlon now as well. There you have a guy built like an NFL linebacker running insane paces off the bike. It is like watching Miguel Indurain pull away from climbing specialists at 170lbs on HC climbs.

It is best to just not think about it too much and enjoy the show.

I believe the faster tracks,wave lights and shoes have made a bit of a difference. If jakob was around,running in the 90s,or even 2000's he wouldnt have beaten komen,or el garrouj,and he would have struggled against mo farah ,bekele, gebresalasie and others. From what little i've read,and understand, jakobs times of today would be worth high 3.29 and maybe 7.23 back then. His 12.48 when he was 20 is worth about 12.58 in the past. Still a brilliant athlete,but not dominating.

Like many here, you think running is a sophisticated sport. It isn't. Training is essentially running. It is long established how endurance is acquired - and speed. This has been known for decades. Ingebrigtsen isn't doing anything radical or special training-wise. Threshold has been used for decades.

Ingebrigtsen isn't significantly better than past greats - he may not even be as good. He lacks basic speed compared to them. Without his phenomenal endurance - which cries out doping - he would likely be running no faster than many athletes were decades ago.

It is an indication that as a md runner he is relatively slow. If he had speed he would run the event and certainly be better than 1:46-mid. That is now schoolboy level (although a very good schoolboy). But he wouldn't win an international or even national race in the event. Yet in the past most great 1500 runners were very respectable over the 800 and even excelled.

Makes no sense what so ever, as always. If it was that easy, why is Ingebrigtsen so dominant? Exclusive access to high-tech doping?

Doping does more than you think. Katir improved 8 seconds over the 1500 in a year (similar to Ramzi). If Ingebrigtsen is doping he might only run 7:30-33 for the 3k if clean. Quite a difference.

He isn't as dominant as you think. He doesn't have the world records for the 1500 and the mile. He has yet to win a WC 1500 final and has repeatedly lost to Kerr in their last meetings (including the Olympics, where 3 runners finished in front of him).

Most top runners today are doping. They are all talented. The drugs they take are intended to give them the edge over their competition. Sometimes it will, sometimes not - because it is an "arms race".

I don't say Ingebrigtsen is alone with his doping - he isn't - but these latest performances are a flagrant demonstration of it. Over 3 seconds faster than a likely EPO fueled record. At that level it isn't possible for a clean athlete.

You argue that anyone could achieve the same. Yet Ingebrigtsen has just smashed a record that has stood for nearly 30 years. Despite everyone doping. Despite the fact that he may not even be as good as the past greats. And despite no one else being close. You are like a never-ending math problem insisting that 2+2=3.

IF you believe J.Ing is drug free, and hes now basically rewritten the charts/tables/record books for middle distance running, then its ridiculous to accuse others of doping each time they run great time.

Why call out others with ZERO proof, when hes shattered Komens WR?

There was a thread started about Aregawi looking sus when he finished behind JI, but JI himself was crowned the King, no questions asked.

What???

What are you talking about?

Have I accused anyone of doping?!

Doping isn't "one size fits all". There is a considerable and changing range of what athletes use. Some will dope more than others. Some are bigger responders. It is an arms race, not a level playing-field. Jakob gives every indication of a high level of doping. To me it is now unarguable - the line he has crossed that proves it is his destroying the almost certainly doped world mark of Komen's. A clean runner could not possibly do that.

That said, there are other runners existing in Jakob's region - they even beat him, as we saw at Paris. There are others currently threatening Rudisha's incredible world mark. The women's distance events are glaringly obvious. Doping is throughout the top of the sport, as it was in baseball when 85% of pros were said to be doping (Canseco). Jakob is just the present poster boy for it.

But if you want to believe he is clean - fine, hold to your dreams - but how do you explain how he has demolished a world mark that endured for decades that was set at a time when EPO was throughout the sport and couldn't be accurately tested for? EPO and doping don't work after all?