Interestingly, the official rules on their website state that in the MTB race "All pro/elite riders are subject to random drug testing by USADA" but there's no mention of any testing for the running race.
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33
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I've followed him on strava since 2018. He used to run 100 mile weeks relatively frequently. Plus he does quite a bit of mountain running. This year his volume was low but dude's got a big base, don't be fooled.
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I'm really just interested to see how guys stack up at UTMB. These domestic races just don't impress me a crazy amount.
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Give his podcast a listen, "Some work, All play". He and his wife discuss performance science constantly. The last episode he covered a lot of details of the race, and previous episodes, he's talked about his training. They're both a bit goofy, but very into the science behind things, and you'll get a lot of insights to what his approach is.
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Why is everyone debating his training when you can see it all on Strava? It looks like his mileage was moderate, but he got in a lot of long, specific efforts in the mountains. There are also some higher mileage weeks (100+ miles) but they are balanced out by lower mileage weeks.
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7:17
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David Roche is an awesome human being. Do not think PEDs is something that fits his mission.
I suspect a part of his super powers at altitude may be that he benefits from a hemochromatosis gene mutation.
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RocheFan wrote:
David Roche is an awesome human being. Do not think PEDs is something that fits his mission.
I suspect a part of his super powers at altitude may be that he benefits from a hemochromatosis gene mutation.
I imagine his actual superpower comes from having a very supportive wife.
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RocheFan wrote:
David Roche is an awesome human being. Do not think PEDs is something that fits his mission.
I suspect a part of his super powers at altitude may be that he benefits from a hemochromatosis gene mutation.
It did pop into my mind that after breaking a long standing impressive ultra record that he might be using some sort of PED, but since you say he is an awesome human being, I now know 100% for sure he is clean. Thanks for providing me clarity.
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RocheFan wrote:
David Roche is an awesome human being. Do not think PEDs is something that fits his mission.
I suspect a part of his super powers at altitude may be that he benefits from a hemochromatosis gene mutation.
I don’t know him personally but used to follow him on Strava and found his and Megan’s self promotion of each other quite annoying. If you know them personally I’m curious, do you read it the same way? Or does it come off differently if you know them?
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BrucesDenton wrote:
Why is everyone debating his training when you can see it all on Strava? It looks like his mileage was moderate, but he got in a lot of long, specific efforts in the mountains. There are also some higher mileage weeks (100+ miles) but they are balanced out by lower mileage weeks.
I think he had a good (bigger)mileage base. Maybe he only averaged that "lower amount" for a certain number of weeks?...but in the past he most likely got in a lot of higher mileage (and there is also a chance he doesn't post 100% of all running training online to Strava). I saw a 2 hour Treadmill Run workout with like 6k-7k of vertical gain doing some high intensity hill reps....so that kind of workout is lower in mileage but it's a lot of time on feet and a high work output and HR spikes in Zone 3-4 (I think it was a 20 x 3-min Threshold on that one for example).
What I questioned about was why he stated (online earlier) that he was trained to have (for Leadville):
1."Sub 14:00 min 5km fitness at altitude" which he also "equated" to "sub 4-min Mile fitness"?
To me those simply just don't line up as something to even mention as the Leadville Record he broke was set by 2:19 + marathoner Matt Carpenter. Also, Rob Krar ran in the 15:50s at Leadville a week after getting top 10 in the Mountain Bike Race several years ago and I considered that "on par" with Carpenter's record already considering course changes. Krar was a low 3:40s guy in college for 1500m I believe...but by the time he was running Leadville he was over 40 years old and obviously way past his 1500m prime.
I get why velocity at Vo2max (5km potential) correlates very well with ultras (mainly because of Running Economy I'd say), but to state you're in "sub 4-min Mile shape" without dropping something like a sub 1:52 for 800m on the track just doesn't really make any sense - and it doesn't line up with evaluating 100-mile trail fitness imo. The Mile/1500m just has too much of an anaerobic and basic speed component to extrapolate on imo. He cited a 10-12 x 400m workout that he did in like 63-64 with a 1:30 rest...but I simply challenged that you can't extrapolate workouts like that to claim "sub-4min Mile fitness"....even with his Football " sprint speed" background. Same thing does with a "sub 14:00 for 5km at altitude"?....unless he dropped like a 6 x 1km workout in 2:45 on a 2-min rest in Boulder that I didn't see?
He also more recently posted that he took in over 500kcal/hour which is a really high amount of nutrition for ultra running. "130-140grams" of carbs per hour is what he stated (which is actually 520-560calories) i believe. I can't imagine how he could even carry that much between aid stations as the crewing at Leadville was quite limited and one can only carry so many gels/drink powders at one time. "Muling" by Pacers didn't start until after 60-miles or so either. Most top elites (for ultra running) tend to top out at around 400-420 kcal/hr (which is already really hard to stomach for a guy that size for hours on end imo). I could be wrong, but I feel like this has to be a bit of an exaggeration? (or that for one hour he hit the high of 560 he claimed?...but to hold that for over 15 +hours *on average* is a lot of nutrition product to pack and stomach? I'd advise most ultra runners to be looking at more like 250-400kcal/hour depending on body weight and relative intensity/finishing time goals.
Anyways, Congrats to Roche - he really nailed this one and it was a very impressive first 100-miler on a pretty hot day. He obviously did a lot of things right, knows how to train, and has a lot of talent and it was a lot of hard work and perseverance . I was glad to see that record finally go down.
473 -
A post about David Roche, with Sage chiming in, all we need is Rafal Nazarewicz on here and the Awesome Sauce holy trinity of scams will be complete.
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S. Canaday wrote:
BrucesDenton wrote:
Why is everyone debating his training when you can see it all on Strava? It looks like his mileage was moderate, but he got in a lot of long, specific efforts in the mountains. There are also some higher mileage weeks (100+ miles) but they are balanced out by lower mileage weeks.
I think he had a good (bigger)mileage base. Maybe he only averaged that "lower amount" for a certain number of weeks?...but in the past he most likely got in a lot of higher mileage (and there is also a chance he doesn't post 100% of all running training online to Strava). I saw a 2 hour Treadmill Run workout with like 6k-7k of vertical gain doing some high intensity hill reps....so that kind of workout is lower in mileage but it's a lot of time on feet and a high work output and HR spikes in Zone 3-4 (I think it was a 20 x 3-min Threshold on that one for example).
What I questioned about was why he stated (online earlier) that he was trained to have (for Leadville):
1."Sub 14:00 min 5km fitness at altitude" which he also "equated" to "sub 4-min Mile fitness"?
To me those simply just don't line up as something to even mention as the Leadville Record he broke was set by 2:19 + marathoner Matt Carpenter. Also, Rob Krar ran in the 15:50s at Leadville a week after getting top 10 in the Mountain Bike Race several years ago and I considered that "on par" with Carpenter's record already considering course changes. Krar was a low 3:40s guy in college for 1500m I believe...but by the time he was running Leadville he was over 40 years old and obviously way past his 1500m prime.
I get why velocity at Vo2max (5km potential) correlates very well with ultras (mainly because of Running Economy I'd say), but to state you're in "sub 4-min Mile shape" without dropping something like a sub 1:52 for 800m on the track just doesn't really make any sense - and it doesn't line up with evaluating 100-mile trail fitness imo. The Mile/1500m just has too much of an anaerobic and basic speed component to extrapolate on imo. He cited a 10-12 x 400m workout that he did in like 63-64 with a 1:30 rest...but I simply challenged that you can't extrapolate workouts like that to claim "sub-4min Mile fitness"....even with his Football " sprint speed" background. Same thing does with a "sub 14:00 for 5km at altitude"?....unless he dropped like a 6 x 1km workout in 2:45 on a 2-min rest in Boulder that I didn't see?
He also more recently posted that he took in over 500kcal/hour which is a really high amount of nutrition for ultra running. "130-140grams" of carbs per hour is what he stated (which is actually 520-560calories) i believe. I can't imagine how he could even carry that much between aid stations as the crewing at Leadville was quite limited and one can only carry so many gels/drink powders at one time. "Muling" by Pacers didn't start until after 60-miles or so either. Most top elites (for ultra running) tend to top out at around 400-420 kcal/hr (which is already really hard to stomach for a guy that size for hours on end imo). I could be wrong, but I feel like this has to be a bit of an exaggeration? (or that for one hour he hit the high of 560 he claimed?...but to hold that for over 15 +hours *on average* is a lot of nutrition product to pack and stomach? I'd advise most ultra runners to be looking at more like 250-400kcal/hour depending on body weight and relative intensity/finishing time goals.
Anyways, Congrats to Roche - he really nailed this one and it was a very impressive first 100-miler on a pretty hot day. He obviously did a lot of things right, knows how to train, and has a lot of talent and it was a lot of hard work and perseverance . I was glad to see that record finally go down.
Sage..thanks for your input. I always enjoy your contributions. In your opinion, do you think his race was a "clean" performance?
This post was edited 52 seconds after it was posted.54 -
S. Canaday wrote:
BrucesDenton wrote:
Why is everyone debating his training when you can see it all on Strava? It looks like his mileage was moderate, but he got in a lot of long, specific efforts in the mountains. There are also some higher mileage weeks (100+ miles) but they are balanced out by lower mileage weeks.
I think he had a good (bigger)mileage base. Maybe he only averaged that "lower amount" for a certain number of weeks?...but in the past he most likely got in a lot of higher mileage (and there is also a chance he doesn't post 100% of all running training online to Strava). I saw a 2 hour Treadmill Run workout with like 6k-7k of vertical gain doing some high intensity hill reps....so that kind of workout is lower in mileage but it's a lot of time on feet and a high work output and HR spikes in Zone 3-4 (I think it was a 20 x 3-min Threshold on that one for example).
What I questioned about was why he stated (online earlier) that he was trained to have (for Leadville):
1."Sub 14:00 min 5km fitness at altitude" which he also "equated" to "sub 4-min Mile fitness"?
To me those simply just don't line up as something to even mention as the Leadville Record he broke was set by 2:19 + marathoner Matt Carpenter. Also, Rob Krar ran in the 15:50s at Leadville a week after getting top 10 in the Mountain Bike Race several years ago and I considered that "on par" with Carpenter's record already considering course changes. Krar was a low 3:40s guy in college for 1500m I believe...but by the time he was running Leadville he was over 40 years old and obviously way past his 1500m prime.
I get why velocity at Vo2max (5km potential) correlates very well with ultras (mainly because of Running Economy I'd say), but to state you're in "sub 4-min Mile shape" without dropping something like a sub 1:52 for 800m on the track just doesn't really make any sense - and it doesn't line up with evaluating 100-mile trail fitness imo. The Mile/1500m just has too much of an anaerobic and basic speed component to extrapolate on imo. He cited a 10-12 x 400m workout that he did in like 63-64 with a 1:30 rest...but I simply challenged that you can't extrapolate workouts like that to claim "sub-4min Mile fitness"....even with his Football " sprint speed" background. Same thing does with a "sub 14:00 for 5km at altitude"?....unless he dropped like a 6 x 1km workout in 2:45 on a 2-min rest in Boulder that I didn't see?
He also more recently posted that he took in over 500kcal/hour which is a really high amount of nutrition for ultra running. "130-140grams" of carbs per hour is what he stated (which is actually 520-560calories) i believe. I can't imagine how he could even carry that much between aid stations as the crewing at Leadville was quite limited and one can only carry so many gels/drink powders at one time. "Muling" by Pacers didn't start until after 60-miles or so either. Most top elites (for ultra running) tend to top out at around 400-420 kcal/hr (which is already really hard to stomach for a guy that size for hours on end imo). I could be wrong, but I feel like this has to be a bit of an exaggeration? (or that for one hour he hit the high of 560 he claimed?...but to hold that for over 15 +hours *on average* is a lot of nutrition product to pack and stomach? I'd advise most ultra runners to be looking at more like 250-400kcal/hour depending on body weight and relative intensity/finishing time goals.
Anyways, Congrats to Roche - he really nailed this one and it was a very impressive first 100-miler on a pretty hot day. He obviously did a lot of things right, knows how to train, and has a lot of talent and it was a lot of hard work and perseverance . I was glad to see that record finally go down.
IIRC that 12 x 400 workout was also done in sets of 3 or 4. That hardly suggests sub-4 fitness at altitude. It’s a pretty absurd claim to say sub-4 and sub-14 fitness at altitude. That would indicate like 3:53 and 13:30 fitness at sea level. I find that incredibly hard to believe.
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Sage
According to the usada database Roche has only been tested by usada one time.
Do you think Roche is doping?
913 -
S. Canaday wrote:
He also more recently posted that he took in over 500kcal/hour which is a really high amount of nutrition for ultra running. "130-140grams" of carbs per hour is what he stated (which is actually 520-560calories) i believe. I can't imagine how he could even carry that much between aid stations as the crewing at Leadville was quite limited and one can only carry so many gels/drink powders at one time.
I'm pretty sure he was carrying Spring Awesome Sauce gels. That's got a huge amount of carbs and calories in a crazy small packet.
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S. Canaday wrote:
BrucesDenton wrote:
Why is everyone debating his training when you can see it all on Strava? It looks like his mileage was moderate, but he got in a lot of long, specific efforts in the mountains. There are also some higher mileage weeks (100+ miles) but they are balanced out by lower mileage weeks.
I think he had a good (bigger)mileage base. Maybe he only averaged that "lower amount" for a certain number of weeks?...but in the past he most likely got in a lot of higher mileage (and there is also a chance he doesn't post 100% of all running training online to Strava). I saw a 2 hour Treadmill Run workout with like 6k-7k of vertical gain doing some high intensity hill reps....so that kind of workout is lower in mileage but it's a lot of time on feet and a high work output and HR spikes in Zone 3-4 (I think it was a 20 x 3-min Threshold on that one for example).
What I questioned about was why he stated (online earlier) that he was trained to have (for Leadville):
1."Sub 14:00 min 5km fitness at altitude" which he also "equated" to "sub 4-min Mile fitness"?
To me those simply just don't line up as something to even mention as the Leadville Record he broke was set by 2:19 + marathoner Matt Carpenter. Also, Rob Krar ran in the 15:50s at Leadville a week after getting top 10 in the Mountain Bike Race several years ago and I considered that "on par" with Carpenter's record already considering course changes. Krar was a low 3:40s guy in college for 1500m I believe...but by the time he was running Leadville he was over 40 years old and obviously way past his 1500m prime.
I get why velocity at Vo2max (5km potential) correlates very well with ultras (mainly because of Running Economy I'd say), but to state you're in "sub 4-min Mile shape" without dropping something like a sub 1:52 for 800m on the track just doesn't really make any sense - and it doesn't line up with evaluating 100-mile trail fitness imo. The Mile/1500m just has too much of an anaerobic and basic speed component to extrapolate on imo. He cited a 10-12 x 400m workout that he did in like 63-64 with a 1:30 rest...but I simply challenged that you can't extrapolate workouts like that to claim "sub-4min Mile fitness"....even with his Football " sprint speed" background. Same thing does with a "sub 14:00 for 5km at altitude"?....unless he dropped like a 6 x 1km workout in 2:45 on a 2-min rest in Boulder that I didn't see?
He also more recently posted that he took in over 500kcal/hour which is a really high amount of nutrition for ultra running. "130-140grams" of carbs per hour is what he stated (which is actually 520-560calories) i believe. I can't imagine how he could even carry that much between aid stations as the crewing at Leadville was quite limited and one can only carry so many gels/drink powders at one time. "Muling" by Pacers didn't start until after 60-miles or so either. Most top elites (for ultra running) tend to top out at around 400-420 kcal/hr (which is already really hard to stomach for a guy that size for hours on end imo). I could be wrong, but I feel like this has to be a bit of an exaggeration? (or that for one hour he hit the high of 560 he claimed?...but to hold that for over 15 +hours *on average* is a lot of nutrition product to pack and stomach? I'd advise most ultra runners to be looking at more like 250-400kcal/hour depending on body weight and relative intensity/finishing time goals.
Anyways, Congrats to Roche - he really nailed this one and it was a very impressive first 100-miler on a pretty hot day. He obviously did a lot of things right, knows how to train, and has a lot of talent and it was a lot of hard work and perseverance . I was glad to see that record finally go down.
Sage: You should listen to the SWAP podcast. David gives all the details you question. They have been talking for months how increasing carbs per hour during ultra running (like cyclists have been doing) will lead to faster times in the sport. They also share what products they use… As a fellow coach you should listen.. you might learn something that could benefit your clients.
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Csdf wrote:
They have been talking for months how increasing carbs per hour during ultra running (like cyclists have been doing) will lead to faster times in the sport. They also share what products they use.
He talks about that at 36:16 in this post race interview.90 -
dunes runner wrote:
Csdf wrote:
They have been talking for months how increasing carbs per hour during ultra running (like cyclists have been doing) will lead to faster times in the sport. They also share what products they use.
He talks about that at 36:16 in this post race interview.Ok adding on to my question above…
I watched this for 2 minutes and had to stop when he started claiming his wife had a claim to being the best running coach in the world. Again, don’t know them personally, but it has been hard to tolerate from a distance
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LessRocheFan wrote:
dunes runner wrote:
He talks about that at 36:16 in this post race interview.Ok adding on to my question above…
I watched this for 2 minutes and had to stop when he started claiming his wife had a claim to being the best running coach in the world. Again, don’t know them personally, but it has been hard to tolerate from a distance
So strange to support your wife. I mean who does that…
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