Herb Elliot training, specifically weight training

Thanks Sim!! Please keep going...

Agreed about lifting weights in both cases.

One person will have a predisposition to hypertrophy and so should do minimal weight training. Their weakness most like will be their deeper aerobic base as they have used strength as a compensation for some fitness over their competitors in the past. Diminished strength training for that individual.

On the flipside correctly performed weight training should only have the effect it intends. So if low repetition heavy weights and isometrics are the main forms used, then strength gains will out-strip weight gain. If a medium-weight high- repetition form is used then increase in mass and weight will out-strip strength gains. In the former you gain a power to weight advantage. In the latter the reverse.

In some middle distance runners and you friend may be one of them (he may also belong to the predisposition category), once basic circuit training is accomplished and weights are added a fit MD runner may well attempt to lift too much weight and so gain mass. The alternative to when you get too fit for the current time used in your circuits is to increase the time or increase the difficulty of the circuit or the exercises in the circuit.

sim

is that you Alex?

p58-9

"My early studies were those of animals. I studied the skeleton of the great racehorse Phar Lap, as well as devoting many hours, for many years, watching and running alongside our greatest racehorses. I learned very much.

Amongst other things i learnt from the study of the racehorse was that they almost moved 'exactly' similarly.: that a silhouette of one going fast fitted exactly into the sillouette of another - extent of leg throw - movement of legs - head and neck angles and relationships - all identical. Whether heavily built or lightly, long in the legs or not so long, tall or short.

Parallel with this study of the horse was the study of the movements of the gazelles, and the higher apes, panthers and leopards in particular.

Without some such study, or teachings, no athlete or coach can ever hope to aspire, understand or 'feel' what is perfect human posture and movement (perambulation)."

p142

"The snatch, to warm up. A weight is placed on the bar-bell that makes it reasonably easy to lift the bar-bell from its position on the floor to a position at arms'-length overhead in one upward heave-and-throw movement. Ten repetitions carried out once only is sufficient. A weight about one fourth or one thrid of the athlete's body-weight is sufficient. The exercise is meant to loosen up and prepare us for the harder and more vigorous exercises to come.

The 'rowing' motion. Weight is placed on the bar-bell about 505 of body-weight or alternatively that can be moved six times without extreme effort, but ten times only with extreme effort. For a beginner the latter direction will be found ot be approximately 50% body-weight or sometimes as low as 30%. The legs kept straight and feet planted firmly on floor, the body is bent over until approximately parallel with floor, and the weight is lifted clear of the floor and then the arms draw the weight close to the body in a somewhat circular motion, using the arms as in rowing, hence the name. Six to ten efforts. When ten can be done, when 10 can be done without resorting to extreme effort, add more weight and drop the repetitions to six again. After a short rest, repeat the repetitions three times, making a toal of eighteen to thirty movements. The arms are benefited, the legs by virtue of the 'held' tension whislt the exercvise is in progress and the abdominals by virtue of held tension."

cheers

I am very interested in Elliot's training. Given his age and track and shoe qualities of the day, it might be conservative to say that he could have run 3:33 back then with one more year of training.

It seems to me to be a lot of the supercompensation that Frank Horwill talks about. There is certainly no hard-easy pattern.

As well, Cerutty might have been ahead of his time with 4 and 5 mile runs very hard.

All very interesting food for thought.

another canuck wrote:

I As well, Cerutty might have been ahead of his time with 4 and 5 mile runs very hard.

.

You forgot Gunder Hägg. He regularly did hard 5 km runs.

Eh... wrote:

another canuck wrote:

I As well, Cerutty might have been ahead of his time with 4 and 5 mile runs very hard.

.

You forgot Gunder Hägg. He regularly did hard 5 km runs.

And Lydiard often had 5km and 10km timetrials.

is it possible Elliot was the greatest of all time? Maybe Ryun? Maybe Zatopek?

p19-21

"In Herb's day we only lived at Portsea from Friday evening to Monday morning. Since January 1959 the centre has been conducted 'full-time'. We now live at Portsea. Previously, the rest of the week we lived at South Yarra, close to the centre of the city of Melbourne. Our location was between two extensive park and garden areas ideal for training. The boys could run on park-like terrain for miles. Variety and change was theirs. In the beginning herb was living with an aunt and uncle some miles away, but had access to a large park like area ideal for his purposes.

He was set to run for 30 minutes to an hour (five to ten miles) before he left for work each morning. This he did at 6 or 6:30 am. each evening, before his evening meal, he trained for about an hour - say ten miles. herb applied himself 100% unremittingly. he stepped right into this work, and is my principle. he could not train friday evenings, that was taken up with travel to Portsea, although on occasion he has left the car and run the last 10 or 15 miles along the dark country road.

During the week Herb received instruction as to my ideas, philosophies etc. This is a continuous process that goes on informally, mostly. Within a year or so most intelligent lads have absorbed all i have to teach. Coincidental with this instruction Herb was taught my technique of movement, the importance of upper body strength and how to acquire it. He worked assiduously several times a week with the heaviest weights he could move in the exercises i prescribe at Portsea. He would train two or three sessions in a day, never less than one hour, sometimes up to two in a session. This work was mostly:

1. Along undulating paths on the cliff-tops and ocean beaches.

2. Upon the heavy beach sands

3. Over the sand-dunes. In particular our 80-foot-high sand- dune.

4. Along dirt roads up to 20 miles running.

5. On one of our two beautiful undulating golf-links.

6. On the grass of our playing field.

7. hall and Stewart circuit-running.

cheers

SIM, what book are you getting this information from? It may be posted earlier in this thread, sorry.

Thanks and keep posting. This is good stuff.

sim;

this quote from Cerutty seems to suggest massive mileage- at least 100 per week. It also suggests a lot of 6 min mi, which would have been very easy to Elliot.

It seems to conflict with the schedules in Lore of Running. On the other hand, if it was really this strenous, maybe that is the reason that Herb had had enough by 22. Also, only one in a multitude could withstand that training load. Much like Ryan, part of the gift of being great is being able to withstand those maximum loads.

Great stuff though

pc runner it is Athletics: How to be a champion. by Percy Wells Cerutty, Stanley Paul and co. London, 2nd ed. July 1960

A bible of athletics.

The foreward:

"To paraphrase a statement attributed to Baron Coubertin, the founder of the mdoern Olympic Games, and to supplement it:

It is not the winning that is important it is the taking part.

It is not the arrival that is important, but the journeying to.

It is not the doing that is important, but the trying to be.

All the world admires a trier - and that is something we can all succeed at: be 'tops' in, being a sincere and punishing trier.

It is the trier then, he who would be a champion, that this book is dedicated."

I realise others have this book but most probably don't so i will continue to put stuff up from it (and the other one success in sport and life) if people are interested. There really should be a reprint. Athletes and the athletics of today are finally becoming educated enough to really appreciate what he was saying 48 years ago.

i know this isn't the Lydiard v Cerutty thread which as HRE suggested should probably be called the Lydiard 'and' Cerutty thread.

I think they were almost the same person, certainly similar spirits.

sim wrote:

Percy also has a chapter later on titled 'Gymnastics and extra exercises a must' and also this chapter "Resistance exercises using the body: the bar-bell and the dumb-bell as added resistance." with some specifics.

1. The Snatch. To warm up.

2. The rowing motion. For arms, shoulders and abdominals.

3. The press. For pushing muscles, standing(military), bench press or best of all with heavy dumb-bells, exercising each arm alternatively.

4. Curls. Front and Reverse.

5. The dead-lift. With erect, straight back.

6. One handed swings.

The boys are also fond of pull downs where the equipment is available.

cheers

I understand all the other movements for running, but why bench press( and curls)? Why runner needs strongs pecs?

The serratus anterior is a important muscle, wich keeps the scapulae in the righ place, but that doesn´t explain it...

I think of a 'press' as a general whole body movement. Cerutty talks about bench press and military press and dumbell presses and also about pushups. All together i think they develop pressing ability more broadly than just bench pressing would.

Also because pressing is a whole body action (even though legs are just for support or at least should be) it generally develops at least the entire upper body and upper torso. Deveopment of serratus as you said and the other scapula stabilisers as well as the lats, the intercostals and deeper abdominal stabilisers if the weight is heavy enough.

Curls i'm less sure about but they are a basic pulling action just as bench press is a basic pushing (pressing) action. Also Cerutty mentions curls as being the free version so the elbows are allowed to sway back and forth as the weight is lifted. And a curl can be done so the bicep is isolated (ie preacher curls) which isn't what Cerutty is advocating i believe. The other way is to take the weight with your whole body instead and to use the shoulders and upper body to assist in the curl. If the weights are as high as Cerutty is advocating it can be the only way. Somehow the curl and the presses are made as whole body as possible. There is a photo of Herb to a deep lunge with the bar-bell across the front of his shoulders like an Olympic split-clean. His whole body is under strain.

We have to remember that Herb excelled in rowing before running, so he had good upper back muscles.

But if you start doing military presses or bench presses when your pecs are already very tight and your upper back muscles weak (really really common these days) it is a sure path to postural problems.

http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Posture.html

There are much better way to train whole body strength.

yes, i think upper back and chest muscles need to be balanced for proper posture as well. Good article.

But i think if you hold 50kg in your hands on a bar-bell then you will need to use your whole body to stay with it. Moving closer to your bodyweight will probably ensure you have to. Just holding it will be a total body strain and it will be difficult to stay up straight if you aren't used to that sort of thing.