If Lebron gets to 40,000 points, can we agree he's the GOAT

No he didn't.

Share the video or you are lying.

Of course, we already know you are lying but give it your best shot.

Most impactful NBA player of all time

For receptions in the play-offs...so?

He’s already the GOAT. Jordan was good but you can’t compare the two. Better athletes these days and more longevity from Lebron. Keep his political views out of the conversation, he’s definitely the best.

Average Heights

Power Forward

1995: 6' 9.2"

Today: 6' 8.2"

Center

1995: 6' 11.4"

Today: 6' 10.3"

No, needs more rings.

The problem with these debates are the rule changes across eras.

When MJ played there was no zone defense, and the little stupid half circle under the basket did not exist. The hand check rules were different, etc.

Alan

Just stop. The defense when Jordan played was much better. They were allowed to hand check then. They aren't allowed to hand check now. It's way easier to score now.

Not saying he's the GOAT. But, when you look at guys like Doncic and Jokic and the numbers they put up, Bird would average 50 points a game in todays NBA.

True. These were some of the smash mouth players Jordan faced

Bill Laimbeer

Karl Malone

Charles Oakley

Alonzo Mourning

Ralph Sampson

Dennis Rodman

Latrell Sprewell

Reggie Miller

Detlef Schrempf

Just to name a few.

There's nobody in the current NBA that plays as tough and physical as any of these names on this list or others in that era

Average number of regular season wins of the opposing teams that Jordan’s Bulls played against in the Finals: 61.2

Average number of regular season wins of the opponents that LeBron’s teams played against in the Finals (prorated to fairly take into account the 2 shortened seasons): 60.7

I'm sorry but why is a point total the "sway factor" here? I just don't get this - it's such a simple and lazy way to judge a metric like this?

And surely since you took so much time to research your post, you recognize how much easier it is to score in NBA in the 2000's vs prior right? Relaxation of key rules that are incredibly beneficial to scoring such as moving screens, carrying the ball, travelling that never gets called - not to mention the elimination of the one thing defenders had going in their favour (the hand check) was abolished in 2003. Lebrons current total and impending 40k points are obviously numerically more than Kareems but will never be better as they simply weren't as difficult to earn.

What's funny to me is that you're locked into total scoring as this defining metric - why is total points more important than PPG? Here Jordan is ahead of him by some margin. So is Wilt. So is Elgin Baylor. Lebrons ahead in rebounds and assists per game, Jordan is ahead in steals and blocks (yes, blocks). Your claim of "career value stats" is simply fake news because across all key "per game" stats, Jordan actually leads 3-2 and his PER is higher too.

Let's move away from quant stuff though, I'm interested how you think other intangibles work in Lebrons favor.

Unlike Jordan who went through the heartbreak of being repeatedly stopped by the Pistons until he willed his team to overcome them and then win a title, Lebron made one finals where he got swept and simply upped and left to another team that had won a title within 5 years and had an already established fellow top 10 player in the league in Wade. As we know they also bought along Bosh (at worst a top 25 player), so he really didn't have anything to do with the building or leadership of that franchise. The Cleveland win in 2016 is great and obviously his career defining moment. This was his team and he deserves the kudos. But once again when Kyrie left and things got tough he upped and left for "better" things going to a Lakers team that he led to 37 games in 2018-19. So he needs another player he had no input in developing and was already established as a top 10 player, Anthony Davis and they win a title that I'm sorry has a huge asterisk next to it as it was the bizarre bubble title with no travel and a reduced schedule that obviously suited both older and injury prone players.

Tell me one player you believe Lebron developed to greatness. Tell me a handful of guys that maybe didn't ascend to greatness but became household names because of him? Not only does Jordan have all that, there are a number of other guys in the history of the league that have this ahead of Lebron. Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Kobe - even Steph Curry you can all make a case that as the faces of franchises took players that might have just been good pros and led them to greatness. Tell me one player in the NBA top 75 that is there because of Lebron? The closest you get is Davis but Lebron did not develop that guy at all. They won a title together - it's not the same. Final point on longevity - yeah it's incredibly impressive but it's just one slice of the bigger picture pie and it's certainly not big enough to lift Lebron ahead of Michael and even a number of other guys named here.

Great post. The other problem with counting stats is that someone who plays for such a long time like LeBron is bound to accumulate both good counting stats and bad ones. Guess who has the most career turnovers in NBA history? LeBron, by far. He has a whopping 5,108 turnovers, which is 12% more than the second highest guy on the list: Russell Westbrook. LeBron also has missed the second-highest amount of shots (behind only Kobe).

Okay one foot just past the line. Still far more impressive than a dunk contest dunk and he landed out of bounds lol.

And don't even get me started on who is a better driver that is no competition. LeBron is quite literally the greatest driver ever. Look at his field goal percentage.

But since you wanna overhype this free throw dunk with no dribbling or defense being played. You'll be happy to know it's so easy that giannis and Aaron gordon also did it in game with defense and through traffic. Zach LaVine not only could dunk from free throw he's done a 360 free throw dunk and a windmill free throw dunk. You want to keep focusing on this making it seem even less impressive? Honestly I am pretty sure Zach LaVine did it in high school I just don't have the time to look for it.

LeBron is actually a better three-point shooter than Jordan too. I would only give Jordan mid-range shooting over LeBron.

LeBron is definitively better at passing, shooting, layups, dunks, a more capable defender, and clearly a better rebounder. So what is Michael Jordan better at?

LeBron can do his signature free throw dunk in a game with actual defense being played on him lol. What are we even comparing?

Then there is the blatant fact that it was much easier to make the NBA in the '80s and the '90s due to expansion teams. A lot of the guys Jordan played against were on brand new teams with no history culture or traditions. Yeah 6-6 against who? How many other guards even had 45 in+ verticals to guard him? Jordan was way before his time.

Another think people don't talk about is how Michael Jordan simultaneously is the best defender but played with Dennis rodman and Scottie pippen. Two players definitely better than him at defense lol. Make it all make sense while you're stuck on that uncontested free throw dunk.

Signed - westsouthrunner the best hooper on these boards by far 😂

Would you rather plumber's hand check you just one at a time?

Or

An entire league comprised of individuals who've been playing basketball since they were 4-5 years old, while being much MUCH superior athletes?

I know one sounds more impressive to me

Just go back and watch MJ's highlights.

Detroit and New York would borderline assault him. I can’t even imagine that kind of D being played today. Players heads would explode.

Go watch Lebron’s highlights. They’ll be 2-3x longer than Jordan’s.

Where do you get the “much superior athlete” nonsense. Having watched both eras. There’s no difference in athleticism. None whatsoever.