The training works for all three brothers. It works for Nordas. Why doesn’t everybody just do the same training?
Not everybody is on what Jakob and his brothers are on.
Exactly. A guy like Laros, who was just one second off of Jakobs 3:30 at the same age, trains very different under Tomasz Lewandowski. Not sure how Myers trains? Kerr, who's the world champion, never doubles according to himself, runs 60 mpw (?) with a big focus on speed and lifting. Wightman, also a world champion mind you, doesn't train like Jakob. Neither does Tim. It's a great system, but it doesn't fit all and doesn't seem to be the ''end of history'' for training theory.
Exactly. A guy like Laros, who was just one second off of Jakobs 3:30 at the same age, trains very different under Tomasz Lewandowski. Not sure how Myers trains? Kerr, who's the world champion, never doubles according to himself, runs 60 mpw (?) with a big focus on speed and lifting. Wightman, also a world champion mind you, doesn't train like Jakob. Neither does Tim. It's a great system, but it doesn't fit all and doesn't seem to be the ''end of history'' for training theory.
Just realized I replied to Armstronglivs, didn't realize what he referred to. Very possible they are on something, but we can't prove it and there's clean people around me who has experienced success on the Bakken system, so it is legit. No doubt though that that much mileage implies serious strain and injury risk on the body.
I thought the point was that his training is sustainable. His AM sessions and marathon pace, his PM sessions at half-marathon to 10k pace. They’re really double sub-thresholds. Add in the new shoes and it seems like a lot of people could handle it.
Do we know much about the paces of his morning thresholds? I believe I saw somewhere his 20-25x400m with 0:30 rest used to be at 63-64 and has since moved down to 62-63.
I thought his morning sessions targeted 2-3 mmol lactate and afternoons targeted 3-4, but I don't think paces have ever been stated except for the 400s.
Not everybody is on what Jakob and his brothers are on.
Exactly. A guy like Laros, who was just one second off of Jakobs 3:30 at the same age, trains very different under Tomasz Lewandowski. Not sure how Myers trains? Kerr, who's the world champion, never doubles according to himself, runs 60 mpw (?) with a big focus on speed and lifting. Wightman, also a world champion mind you, doesn't train like Jakob. Neither does Tim. It's a great system, but it doesn't fit all and doesn't seem to be the ''end of history'' for training theory.
Agree with what you are saying in general but, none of those other guys can win WC 5000's or set 2 mile WR's.
Well, Filip has had non-injury issues and Nordas just rose on the scene at a high level this year, but the training itself rarely includes hard workouts on an individual basis except for once weekly hill repeats and track work in season. The sub-t workouts are pretty easy on the body, despite the high overall mileage. One of Jakob's abilities is health. But the workouts that get you injured are more like your bread and butter BTC workouts.
I thought the point was that his training is sustainable. His AM sessions and marathon pace, his PM sessions at half-marathon to 10k pace. They’re really double sub-thresholds. Add in the new shoes and it seems like a lot of people could handle it.
Do we know much about the paces of his morning thresholds? I believe I saw somewhere his 20-25x400m with 0:30 rest used to be at 63-64 and has since moved down to 62-63.
I thought his morning sessions targeted 2-3 mmol lactate and afternoons targeted 3-4, but I don't think paces have ever been stated except for the 400s.
Yea - just saying that having done these sessions (or very similar) without an AM threshold, they’re still a solid effort and not as easy as everyone seems to saying on LRC. The 400s are between 5 and 10k pace if you want to stay at 3.5mmol/L, and the 1ks are directly at HM/1h pace. Just to compare to “traditional” training and show that Jakob’s is actually harder IMO : OAC does 12x1k, 4x2mi, 8xMile @ HM pace as their longer threshold sessions, so 12-13km of total volume. Their shorter ones are around 9-10k of threshold volume, and they do this once a week + a progressive or hilly LR (we can say the last 10k are sub threshold effort with the first 20k easy ) + a short speed workout that’s basically the same as Jakob’s hill session.
Meanwhile, Jakob will do 2 threshold sessions that are 10k in volume + 2 subthreshold + a short speed session. Jakob is doing more threhsold, more sub threshold and more volume than OAC, so how is his training more sustainable? It’s harder, and since Jakob is able to assimilate all of it he’s better off, but I think this is the main reason why people don’t train exactly like him: it’s hard, very tiring and in my experience impossible if you’re working or studying full time to recover enough. Jakob even started that he stopped reading and studying between workouts because it was so demanding.
Do we know much about the paces of his morning thresholds? I believe I saw somewhere his 20-25x400m with 0:30 rest used to be at 63-64 and has since moved down to 62-63.
I thought his morning sessions targeted 2-3 mmol lactate and afternoons targeted 3-4, but I don't think paces have ever been stated except for the 400s.
Yea - just saying that having done these sessions (or very similar) without an AM threshold, they’re still a solid effort and not as easy as everyone seems to saying on LRC. The 400s are between 5 and 10k pace if you want to stay at 3.5mmol/L, and the 1ks are directly at HM/1h pace. Just to compare to “traditional” training and show that Jakob’s is actually harder IMO : OAC does 12x1k, 4x2mi, 8xMile @ HM pace as their longer threshold sessions, so 12-13km of total volume. Their shorter ones are around 9-10k of threshold volume, and they do this once a week + a progressive or hilly LR (we can say the last 10k are sub threshold effort with the first 20k easy ) + a short speed workout that’s basically the same as Jakob’s hill session.
Meanwhile, Jakob will do 2 threshold sessions that are 10k in volume + 2 subthreshold + a short speed session. Jakob is doing more threhsold, more sub threshold and more volume than OAC, so how is his training more sustainable? It’s harder, and since Jakob is able to assimilate all of it he’s better off, but I think this is the main reason why people don’t train exactly like him: it’s hard, very tiring and in my experience impossible if you’re working or studying full time to recover enough. Jakob even started that he stopped reading and studying between workouts because it was so demanding.
Jakob’s AM sessions are at marathon pace or maybe even slower. The intensities of his sessions compared to the OAC example are different. Yes, Jakob is doing more volume in a day, but it’s broken-up and, as mentioned previously, the AM session is lower intensity. So we have Jakob doing 6 miles of work broken-up, at marathon pace in the morning and 6 miles of work, closer to half-marathon pace, broken-up, in the afternoon.
OAC is doing 8 miles of work, broken-up, in one session at half-marathon pace. A longer session, with an extra two mile at the higher intensity, often longer intervals like miles and 2 miles. Jakob is still doing more, but if the AM session is done correctly, it isn’t as taxing as you’re making it seem. His PM sessions are also shorter intervals, which I think helps make it easier on the body too. So what OAC is doing and what Jakob are doing aren’t all that different in terms of stress on the body.
Also compare it to BTC. They do 10 miles of threshold in one session. That sounds way harder on the body than 12 miles in two sessions, with half of that volume at a lower intensity.
I've read a lot about the "norwegian" training method and I have a different takeaway from most.
The standout in this method is the "threshold" training. It is notable and a big change compared to tradition T&F training.
However, I think it is less different than most here believe.
The secret to the norwegian method is close monitoring of the bodies response to training and making micro-adjustments to training in response to consideration of that monitoring. Subjective feel in response to a given speed is the most important thing in this method. Subjective feel "sensation" is informed by data like speed/HR/Lactate but feel matters most.
In the most important ways, the norwegian method is similar to the Kenyan or ethiopian or whateve elite training method. Start with talent, play close attention to how the body is responding to training and repeat.
For an amaterur, double threshold training is useless if you don't have the monitoring and sense of feel.
I do think the emphasis on slower sub-threshold training is useful, but this is nothing new in training. All the greats in T&F have done this type of training but they use different words for it.
Well, Filip has had non-injury issues and Nordas just rose on the scene at a high level this year, but the training itself rarely includes hard workouts on an individual basis except for once weekly hill repeats and track work in season. The sub-t workouts are pretty easy on the body, despite the high overall mileage. One of Jakob's abilities is health. But the workouts that get you injured are more like your bread and butter BTC workouts.
IMO it’s a misconception that some workouts get you injured and some don’t - Jakob and Filip were often injured on the Norwegian plan. To compete at a high level you have to risk getting injured. Remember the poster who claimed that it was “impossible to get injured on Tinman training” because the workouts progressed from tempo to CV to short fast reps ? Drew Hunter was still always injured ! There are many factors that cause injuries and I find it’s wrong that LRC always blames “traditional” workouts while somehow believing that double T is safer because you’re running a bit slower in workouts.
Most pro training plans stay away from the harder workouts until the summer, just like Jakob. Take a look at OAC, all public on Strava. They do 2-3 hard (Vo2 max or faster) sessions over the fall and winter, as well as 3 races. The rest is threshold, 200 repeats and long runs which is very close to what Jakob does.
It's not about the training program these things come and go over time. It's all about the talent level of the individual. There are many roads to the same destination. There is no secret sauce.
Yea - just saying that having done these sessions (or very similar) without an AM threshold, they’re still a solid effort and not as easy as everyone seems to saying on LRC. The 400s are between 5 and 10k pace if you want to stay at 3.5mmol/L, and the 1ks are directly at HM/1h pace. Just to compare to “traditional” training and show that Jakob’s is actually harder IMO : OAC does 12x1k, 4x2mi, 8xMile @ HM pace as their longer threshold sessions, so 12-13km of total volume. Their shorter ones are around 9-10k of threshold volume, and they do this once a week + a progressive or hilly LR (we can say the last 10k are sub threshold effort with the first 20k easy ) + a short speed workout that’s basically the same as Jakob’s hill session.
Meanwhile, Jakob will do 2 threshold sessions that are 10k in volume + 2 subthreshold + a short speed session. Jakob is doing more threhsold, more sub threshold and more volume than OAC, so how is his training more sustainable? It’s harder, and since Jakob is able to assimilate all of it he’s better off, but I think this is the main reason why people don’t train exactly like him: it’s hard, very tiring and in my experience impossible if you’re working or studying full time to recover enough. Jakob even started that he stopped reading and studying between workouts because it was so demanding.
Jakob’s AM sessions are at marathon pace or maybe even slower. The intensities of his sessions compared to the OAC example are different. Yes, Jakob is doing more volume in a day, but it’s broken-up and, as mentioned previously, the AM session is lower intensity. So we have Jakob doing 6 miles of work broken-up, at marathon pace in the morning and 6 miles of work, closer to half-marathon pace, broken-up, in the afternoon.
OAC is doing 8 miles of work, broken-up, in one session at half-marathon pace. A longer session, with an extra two mile at the higher intensity, often longer intervals like miles and 2 miles. Jakob is still doing more, but if the AM session is done correctly, it isn’t as taxing as you’re making it seem. His PM sessions are also shorter intervals, which I think helps make it easier on the body too. So what OAC is doing and what Jakob are doing aren’t all that different in terms of stress on the body.
Also compare it to BTC. They do 10 miles of threshold in one session. That sounds way harder on the body than 12 miles in two sessions, with half of that volume at a lower intensity.
I noted that the morning session was sub threshold. OAC also does lactate controlling on their threshold workouts so the fact that the reps are longer isn’t a ton of stress because they’re a bit slower. For example klecker will do 1k reps in 2:55, but miles in 4:50 and 2 miles in 4:55, so it is the same effort/lactate level as Jakob’s evening session, just slightly longer. Jakob does two of these a week while OAC does one slightly longer one. The short session is basically the same. If we compare a week in total:
JI: 180k: 2x10k threhsold, 2x10k sub T, 1x short speed
OAC: 170k, 13k threshold, 10k SubT,1x short speed
I would say that’s a pretty good difference - Jakob even says himself the he trains 30% harder than other athletes.
also for Bowerman, they don’t always do 10mi. It’s more in the range of 8mi - very close to the OAC plan. Look at Karissa Schweitzer’s training log somewhere in the site. Also I’ve spoken to members of BTC and their training is really not as hard as most people on this site say it is. Im guessing most ppl don’t know much about it, and say it is super hard because of that grant Fisher interview - to be fair he was pretty undertrained in college and went from training as a 13:30 guy to training with Moh Ahmed, so that is some of the reason.
Jakob’s AM sessions are at marathon pace or maybe even slower. The intensities of his sessions compared to the OAC example are different. Yes, Jakob is doing more volume in a day, but it’s broken-up and, as mentioned previously, the AM session is lower intensity. So we have Jakob doing 6 miles of work broken-up, at marathon pace in the morning and 6 miles of work, closer to half-marathon pace, broken-up, in the afternoon.
OAC is doing 8 miles of work, broken-up, in one session at half-marathon pace. A longer session, with an extra two mile at the higher intensity, often longer intervals like miles and 2 miles. Jakob is still doing more, but if the AM session is done correctly, it isn’t as taxing as you’re making it seem. His PM sessions are also shorter intervals, which I think helps make it easier on the body too. So what OAC is doing and what Jakob are doing aren’t all that different in terms of stress on the body.
Also compare it to BTC. They do 10 miles of threshold in one session. That sounds way harder on the body than 12 miles in two sessions, with half of that volume at a lower intensity.
I noted that the morning session was sub threshold. OAC also does lactate controlling on their threshold workouts so the fact that the reps are longer isn’t a ton of stress because they’re a bit slower. For example klecker will do 1k reps in 2:55, but miles in 4:50 and 2 miles in 4:55, so it is the same effort/lactate level as Jakob’s evening session, just slightly longer. Jakob does two of these a week while OAC does one slightly longer one. The short session is basically the same. If we compare a week in total:
JI: 180k: 2x10k threhsold, 2x10k sub T, 1x short speed
OAC: 170k, 13k threshold, 10k SubT,1x short speed
I would say that’s a pretty good difference - Jakob even says himself the he trains 30% harder than other athletes.
also for Bowerman, they don’t always do 10mi. It’s more in the range of 8mi - very close to the OAC plan. Look at Karissa Schweitzer’s training log somewhere in the site. Also I’ve spoken to members of BTC and their training is really not as hard as most people on this site say it is. Im guessing most ppl don’t know much about it, and say it is super hard because of that grant Fisher interview - to be fair he was pretty undertrained in college and went from training as a 13:30 guy to training with Moh Ahmed, so that is some of the reason.
the top two distance clubs in the USA. Notable athletes from OAC: Yared Nuguse, Oli Hoare, Joe Klecker, Morgan McDonald, Sage Hurta Klecker, Josette Norris, Sintayehu Vissa
BTC: Elise Cranny, Courtney Frerichs, Evan Jager, Mo Ahmed, Grant Fisher, Sean McGorty, Karissa Schweizer (and ex athletes include Shelby houlihan, Centrowitz jr and colleen quigley)
One of the most prominent benefits of epo/peds similar to it is the ability to recover at super speeds and therfore train more/do double workouts and back to back days of workouts very effectively. A person not aided by peds would have difficulty recovering/not able to keep up with the highest demand of workout routine.
Here we go again!
Thanks for the insightful breakdown of how drugs work.
It's not about the training program these things come and go over time. It's all about the talent level of the individual. There are many roads to the same destination. There is no secret sauce.
One of the most prominent benefits of epo/peds similar to it is the ability to recover at super speeds and therfore train more/do double workouts and back to back days of workouts very effectively. A person not aided by peds would have difficulty recovering/not able to keep up with the highest demand of workout routine.
Here we go again!
Thanks for the insightful breakdown of how drugs work.
I thought the point was that his training is sustainable. His AM sessions and marathon pace, his PM sessions at half-marathon to 10k pace. They’re really double sub-thresholds. Add in the new shoes and it seems like a lot of people could handle it.
anyone who thinks Jakob is running WR/WB's off Marathon-10K pace workouts is deluded, so clearly his training isn't all "double-threshold" like so many people claim.
Also to OP's question - yes, everyone is trying to do it, which has been pretty obvious over the past few years.
That being said, this is not some new phenomena, and I'm not talking about the other Norwegians. Double sessions have been around long before Jakob, see plenty of Canova's posts, listen to his podcast when he talks about watching athletes decades ago doing crazy double days, look at what so many of the east african athletes do every week without posting it on social media.
Fitness jumps from double-t training is only down to the increased volume that someone can fit into their week, it's not specific to having done 2 sessions in a day, if structurally your body can manage one huge workout, it's negligibly the same effect
"Double threshold" is just a catchy term for westerners, but it's not a new (to Jakob) nor a truthful insight into the training at that level. Newly minted 3:49 Miler George Mills said he has just been doing loads of double-T workouts, but this is akin to everyone saying 'I haven't touched speed work yet'. Full of BS, and I'm tired of so many people acting like this is some holy grail training method.
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