I believe the reports that Vingegaard possesses an exceptional VO2max that makes him a uniquely talented rider. But I also have two eyes and have knowledge of cycling's history. Vingegaard blew Pogacar away in the stage 16 time trial, and Pogacar blew everyone else away in the same stage. We're talking standard deviations at this point. Supreme outliers. Vingegaard's performances deep into this year's Tour seem too good to be true. Lance Armstrong seemed too good to be true. Rashid Ramzi seemed too good to be true.
He doesn't have some uniquely exceptional Vo2 max. The team manager has already said that the story is false
Race leader Geraint Thomas hit back after some former riders criticised the decision to shorten stage 13 of the #Giro! 🇮🇹Useful Links:GCN+ | Every. Unmissa...
it's the time trial that does it for me. he was 10% ahead of everybody except Pogacar, that is not natural in a field of the best riders in the world. And he was 5% ahead of Pogacar.
it's like Kipchoge winning Berlin marathon 7 minutes clear of 2nd place and 15 minutes clear of 3rd.
good grief. is this relevant to yeserday or the past?
tech, handling and bike change are all new (by defin), so its all down to a level playing field except for drugs.
except if anyone in cycling is dirty, its pog. hence he blows up when blood tested. not saying that...
You should at least watch the stage before commenting.
It's in reference to yesterday.
Bike Change: Pogacar had a bike change at the bottom of the final climb, Vingegaard did not.
Handling: Pogacar looked a little timid on the technical descent, Vingegaard did not (he was ridiculously aggressive).
I'm not sure about the tech, but perhaps Gaimon is inferring that Jumbo Visma have some technical edge on their TT bikes.
I did. i watched it live on SBS australia.
From the ramp V was far more agressive than P. towards the end one of the commentators said p looked ill and i think this is right. But i also watched P destroy Roglic on the super planche. Both P and R are definitely on the juice. So V must be.
P lost about 5 seconds changing bike - this 20/25s loss is nonsense. .
They practice this, time it, calculate it perfectly. they would have known the differenc perfectly.
I will aree with the handling, but the main damage was done on the descent - check the intermediate times
My point is that they all have new tech, all handle well,all do the sums re bike change - so all those elements are the same -just not the drugs, nor te attitude.
V destroyed most of the field because they werent in the same competition (not going for first - in their own little place competitions). P was ill, as evidenced from yesterday (also watched live).
But the result is still nonsense, and van aert knows it.
It will be interesting to know, if we ever do, ow much difference the blood test made / makes. watch this space.
Vingegaard won the time trial by more than 90 seconds. That means he drove 2.5 kilometres per hour faster, more than five percent faster than anybody else. Come on, against the best in the world, it's not possible without doping or some other form of cheating.
why is nobody mentioning TUEs. he might be doping legally.
Vingegaard won the time trial by more than 90 seconds. That means he drove 2.5 kilometres per hour faster, more than five percent faster than anybody else. Come on, against the best in the world, it's not possible without doping or some other form of cheating.
why is nobody mentioning TUEs. he might be doping legally.
A TUE doesn't mean you can use whatever you want though.
So many people believe a TUE is something you get and then it allows you to dope with impunity.
Both Pogi and Vingegaard are on the juice. They are DESTROYING most of the EPO-era records on climbs, with stages riden full-gas and gaps almost never seen before in the classification. On the TT, Vingegaard was at 7,6 watts/kg for the last 15 minutes, it's just SUPERHUMAN, and guys behind are not clowns... Only one TT was won with a bigger margin (in seconds per kilometer) in the history of the Tour, in 1961. And the gap between Pogi and the man who peaks 11 months a year Wout van Aert is ridiculous too
That was as if Kipchoge ran 1:59 in a real race and Kiptum destroyed him in 1:57...
Vingegaard won the time trial by more than 90 seconds. That means he drove 2.5 kilometres per hour faster, more than five percent faster than anybody else. Come on, against the best in the world, it's not possible without doping or some other form of cheating.
why is nobody mentioning TUEs. he might be doping legally.
This is not intended to say that he isn't on drugs.
However, I did just find articles that said he was tested four times in the last two days. Yes, if you can beat one test then you can beat four. He is tested every day that he is in yellow. So, at least there is an effort to hold up the bar. We can't say he should be tested more.
As for the margin of victory in the time trial; there is good side-by-side analysis that shows a lot of the gains were in cornering and the bike change. After watching those, I can't believe some of the risks he took diving through corners, braking late and pedaling out early, etc. I race time trial bikes and I thought what he was doing was borderline crazy.
Bridie O'Donnell and Simon Gerrans of the SBS commentary team break down where Vingegaard took time in some of the crucial corners on Staeg 16 of the 2023 To...
My point is that they all have new tech, all handle well,all do the sums re bike change - so all those elements are the same -just not the drugs, nor te attitude.
Irrespective of the doping issue, I think you might be underestimating the tech advantage. I think I heard someone report that the Jumbo TT bikes are 2 lbs lighter than the UAE TT bikes, and that was one reason the bike change was considered. If that's the case, then Cervelo probably produces bikes with better aerodynamics too. But ... TT bikes are notoriously hard to handle. If you have a bike that handles significantly better than your competition, it's going to allow you to be more confident and aggressive on a technical course. I think we saw that from JV during his ride.
I certainly don't think it's 1:38 difference, but I do believe that Jumbo has some tech advantage.
However, I did just find articles that said he was tested four times in the last two days. Yes, if you can beat one test then you can beat four. He is tested every day that he is in yellow.
Microdosing won't result in a positive test as long as you are careful. And I am no expert - would he even need to dose at all during the tour itself? Isn't the benefit in the training beforehand where you are boosting your red blood cells or mitochondria and whatnot?
However, I did just find articles that said he was tested four times in the last two days. Yes, if you can beat one test then you can beat four. He is tested every day that he is in yellow.
Microdosing won't result in a positive test as long as you are careful. And I am no expert - would he even need to dose at all during the tour itself? Isn't the benefit in the training beforehand where you are boosting your red blood cells or mitochondria and whatnot?
In 1998, a staff member from team Festina was caught 3days prior Le tour de France with more than 400 doses of PEDs (235 for EPO, 120 amphetamines, 82 HGH, 60 testosterone and some corticoids). During the following investigation, a doctor admitted that the riders would take 3 EPO doses a week during the tour if their hematocrit level was low.
L’affaire Festina est une affaire de dopage qui a touché le cyclisme professionnel en 1998. Les faits Cette affaire démarre trois jours avant le Tour de France 1998, dont le départ est donné à Dublin en Irlande. Elle est mené...
That was 25years ago. And those guys were not doing performances like we see from JV. Today, I would bet Pogacar and Vingegaard have a special coktail for everyday.
This is totally correct and people who aren't familiar with cycling dont comprehend the benefit of weight and aero. Jumbo clearly went all in, on this department.
I also hear that Jonas has been training a lot on his TT bike, which is evident in how comfortable he was both putting out power and handling that bike. Minor tweaks in position can have a big impact on aero, but they can also have a big impact on the ability to put out power. Unless you are training in your aero position you aren't just going be able to hop onto your TT bike and but out power equal to your road bike - its a different position and you are engaging muscles differently. Jonas can put out power there, and its evident that Pogacar can't put out as much. Not to mention that Jonas is banging corner lines like a crit racer, pedaling through them, knows pedal clearance etc... he looks totally comfortable on that bike.
The bike switch alone would indicate some combination of (a) Pogacar isn't as comfortable putting out high power output on his TT bike, (b) UAE TT bike is much heavier than his road bike, (c) UAE TT bike aero isn't as much of an advantage over their road bike (YES AERO MATTERS WHILE CLIMBING).
Lets also not forget that Pogacar is ~10-12lbs heavier than Jonas, which doesn't work in his favor during an uphill TT.
Diet, sleep, recovery methods and - yes - PED efficiency knowledge, use and applications have changed dramatically in the last 10 years thanks to $/Team Sky. You're seeing the spoils of those advancements now more so than the Sky era. But yes, sadly some of this has to be attributed to PED usage.
Just as a comparison to the US Postal era on sleep/recovery data: their method was still basically testing HR in the morning. The advancements here alone to better pinpoint when to rest and when to go hard during major training stints is a game changer - especially in week 3 of a grand tour.
