He didn't have the doping advantages that runners clearly have today. That's the biggest difference.
Your post is silly. Not the same drugs but there were drugs but without testing. I'm not accusing him. I don't accuse anyone without evidence and I am not going to clear anyone just because.
Drugs were in their infancy in the mid-sixties and not known to be then present in distance running. You are failing to see that doping has developed alongside the sport in the last fifty years to the extent they have become indistinguishable. That wasn't so in Ryun's era.
* Training on cinder is easier on the body than training on synthetic tracks. People assuming Ryun would be faster today are assuming he would not suffer more injuries today.
* Ryun was fastest on a cinder track.
* If by accident of birth, Ryun was not born in an English speaking country, Ryun would have likely been groomed as an 800m specialist from age 12 to age 27.
I would bet against Ryun having any world records. He wouldn't be any faster than J Ingebrigtsen is today, 1500m due to Ryun's size. If J Ingebrigtsen and Ryun raced, 1500m, championship format, who knows? If J Ingebrigtsen and Ryun raced 1500m with pacers and lights, I doubt Ryun could beat J Ingebrigtsen.
-
* Right, because Ryun had a famously long career in which he was 100% healthy every year.
* He was fastest on a cinder track because he peaked when he was 20 - despite all that training on cinders.
* This is the most stupid point of yours. There were very few specialist 800m runners before the late 80's from any country. And just about zero with any obvious talent at the 1500 like Ryun possessed. Jeez you're talking about the first schoolboy in history to run a sub 4 minute mile, the guy who smoked the Olympic champion while still at school. Besides, what does it matter - he was born in an English speaking country and he did run both the 800 and 1500 like nearly every othe middle-distance runner who wasn't a 400/800 guy. And what's your point about his size? He's practically identical to Jakob in size, but he wouldn't beat him because of his size???
He was considerably faster than Ingebrigtsen - being a sub-22sec man over 200, as well as being the then wr holder over the half-mile. With all the advantages that runners have today, if he had the same I have little doubt that at his peak he wouldn't beat the best 1500m runners today.
My goodness the man was more talented than Jakob. Would Ryun run 3:25 with the tracks and shoes?
To answer your question, I'll first ask a question. How many HS athletes do you know today that run to school, get there early, have the janitors open the weight room, workout, go to school, track practice, and then run home?
Not only did Ryun have the HS mile record, he also had the HS 880 yd record.
And, did it all on cinders.
Dude was a stud. Now, he gets to run on these tracks? In these spikes? I really think if you look at his effort, and how he is spent after every race, compared to Jakob who is fine after, the Ryun would do whatever it takes to win.
Your post is silly. Not the same drugs but there were drugs but without testing. I'm not accusing him. I don't accuse anyone without evidence and I am not going to clear anyone just because.
Drugs were in their infancy in the mid-sixties and not known to be then present in distance running. You are failing to see that doping has developed alongside the sport in the last fifty years to the extent they have become indistinguishable. That wasn't so in Ryun's era.
Just stop digging in. You are wrong. You started off as an over the top J Ryun fanboy, now you are making false statements. Amphetamines were available with little to no testing. Amphetamines were widely used openly by many pro athletes in numerous sports to 35 or 40 years ago. Buckets of amphetamines in locker rooms.
Drugs were in their infancy in the mid-sixties and not known to be then present in distance running. You are failing to see that doping has developed alongside the sport in the last fifty years to the extent they have become indistinguishable. That wasn't so in Ryun's era.
Amphetamines were widely used openly by many pro athletes in numerous sports to 35 or 40 years ago.
My goodness the man was more talented than Jakob. Would Ryun run 3:25 with the tracks and shoes?
I know there will never be an answer and there is a group of Letsrun posters who see Ryun as immortal, but I don't think he'd be the best ever. He peaked early and was a true physical freak talent. He "looked" stronger and more fit than most other 1500m runners. When I first saw Alan Webb he reminded me of images I'd seen of Ryun.
Alan Webb, to me, was the late 1990's / early 2000's version of Jim Ryun. Freak talent. Muscular. Super good leg speed. Hard worker. Webb ran 3:30 and 3:46 (mile) and 1:43, all in a month span and never found that again. You could easily argue he peaked early as well. He was very much like Ryun and so, maybe Ryun could have been as fast +/- as Webb was.
There are no white boy USA runners who have ever run faster than 3:30. Why would Ryun suddenly be the exception? If you think Ryun is more talented than jakob, do you think Alan Webb is more talented than Jakob Ingebrigsten? He might be physically, but that's not all is takes to be the best.
Kip Keino broke the 3,000m WR by 6 seconds and broke the 5,000m WR as well. He beat Ryun by 20 meters in the 1968 Oly final...biggest winning margin ever.
Are people arguing Keino would be better than Bekele and Cheptegei?! Or the 3,000m WR holder? I doubt it.
Another thing hard to quantify is that Ryun didn't think anyone could run as fast as Keino did in Mexico City to win the gold medal. He thought a slower time would win. Perhaps this was a mental limitation that prevented him from setting higher goals.
Ryun ran 3:51. Obviously, that'd be faster on modern tracks and with better shoes. So, safe to say he'd have been under 3:50 for the mile. I don't find it difficult to make an argument that would have happened. Today, running 3:50/51 is fairly common. Even Galen Rupp did it. There are guys running 3:49 who aren't sniffing 3:25 in the 1500m. Even if Ryun ran 3:47-48, I don't think he's faster than the everyone else. Webb wasn't and he ran 3:46 and 1:43 in the same month.
El G was the best and most consistent 1500m runner ever, and no one really comes close.
Also, development as a runner in terms of fast times isn't linear. It's a curve and the curve gets very steep near the world records. A 3:51 mile is much more common than a 3:48 mile. A 1:44 800m is much more common than a 1:42.
You have to assume the rate of improvement and breakthrough hits a wall at some point and people just cannot go faster. Physical AND mental limitation.
I know there will never be an answer and there is a group of Letsrun posters who see Ryun as immortal, but I don't think he'd be the best ever. He peaked early and was a true physical freak talent. He "looked" stronger and more fit than most other 1500m runners. When I first saw Alan Webb he reminded me of images I'd seen of Ryun.
Alan Webb, to me, was the late 1990's / early 2000's version of Jim Ryun. Freak talent. Muscular. Super good leg speed. Hard worker. Webb ran 3:30 and 3:46 (mile) and 1:43, all in a month span and never found that again. You could easily argue he peaked early as well. He was very much like Ryun and so, maybe Ryun could have been as fast +/- as Webb was.
There are no white boy USA runners who have ever run faster than 3:30. Why would Ryun suddenly be the exception?
Ryun would be the exception because he broke world records as a teenager! He was, by definition, exceptional.
Consider not only the advances in shoes and tracks. Consider the advances in training knowledge and professionalism of the sport. Ryun set his best 1500 and mile times at age 20. If he ran today with the type of professional supports and resources that are available, he very likely would have continued improving for another 5 years.
Webb was a great high school runner who turned in very fast times. Ryun did that too but was also a world class runner while still in high school. Did Webb make an Olympic team as a high school underclassman? Did Webb beat a defending Olympic gold medalist and world record holder while still in high school?
Webb was a great high school runner who turned in very fast times. Ryun did that too but was also a world class runner while still in high school. Did Webb make an Olympic team as a high school underclassman? Did Webb beat a defending Olympic gold medalist and world record holder while still in high school?
I generally agree.
Ryun was more talented high school but my position is that Ryun had a physical limit and couldn't just keep improving until he ran 3:25. (We'll never know!) If high schoolers were running 3:50 or 3:51 today it wouldn't get them to the olympics, so competition is relative.
Almost no human can run 3:25 despite how talented they are is my argument. Webb, Makhloufi, etc..
But the guys he was beating weren't running as close to the human limit as they are now. The sport wasn't as deep as it is now. It's not like smart training, shoe technology, and recovery techniques are going to get humans to run 3:10 in 1500m or 8.5 in the 100m. The curve is steepening. There's a limit.
Ryun obviously spent a lot of his running "budget" while in high school. Maybe with a coach who knew the science he could have gone longer and faster, but I think he played most of his fun tickets early. Webb sort of did the same.
Legs seem to only get so many hard miles in a lifetime.
Physiology doesn't change. If you were the most talented miler in the world in 1966 you had the same physiological weaponry as the most talented miler in the world in 2016 had. It might be possible to convince me that the improved times today are because today's stars are fitter than ones of earlier times but it will take some doing. I think the improvements are due to faster shoes, faster tracks, rabbits, PEDs, money and longer careers, which is mostly due to money.
Ryun's 3:51.1 was a SOLO effort on a dirt track where the inside lane was reportedly fairly torn up from earlier races. It can never happen but I'd love to put an Ingebrigsten or Cheryiot on a dirt track in conventional spikes and the rest of the field filled with guys who have a collective best time of maybe 3:57 and see what sort of time they turn in.
Also, development as a runner in terms of fast times isn't linear. It's a curve and the curve gets very steep near the world records. A 3:51 mile is much more common than a 3:48 mile. A 1:44 800m is much more common than a 1:42.
You have to assume the rate of improvement and breakthrough hits a wall at some point and people just cannot go faster. Physical AND mental limitation.
OMG. And a 3:55 mile is much more common than a 3:51 mile, and a 4:05 mile is much more common than a 4:15 miles.
Amphetamines were widely used openly by many pro athletes in numerous sports to 35 or 40 years ago.
So what? Ryun ran 50+ years ago.
Have you been driving from library to library giving yourself up arrows?
You should know amphetamine use was widespread during Ryun era. Are you an English professor or attorney? Amphetamines were widely available in pro locker rooms UP TO 35 to 40 years ago.
Almost no human can run 3:25 despite how talented they are is my argument. Webb, Makhloufi, etc..
All indications are that 3:26.00 requires full throttle epo. If you are going to compare with those times you have to put Ryun on the same program. Otherwise the question is apples to oranges. Ryun with super shoes, super tracks, modern training, lights, pacers, and full throttle epo is setting a new world record.
Physiology doesn't change. If you were the most talented miler in the world in 1966 you had the same physiological weaponry as the most talented miler in the world in 2016 had. It might be possible to convince me that the improved times today are because today's stars are fitter than ones of earlier times but it will take some doing. I think the improvements are due to faster shoes, faster tracks, rabbits, PEDs, money and longer careers, which is mostly due to money.
Ryun's 3:51.1 was a SOLO effort on a dirt track where the inside lane was reportedly fairly torn up from earlier races. It can never happen but I'd love to put an Ingebrigsten or Cheryiot on a dirt track in conventional spikes and the rest of the field filled with guys who have a collective best time of maybe 3:57 and see what sort of time they turn in.
Ryun's solo effort was insane...an incredible feat!
BUT again, you're assuming Ryun had 3:25 (or all-time) physical talent. And other runners have essentially solo'd faster before.
We can't say for sure he didn't, but not likely. He had a ceiling like everyone does, and three people have only run 3:26.
Jesse Owens set three world records and tied another, all in less than an hour, at the 1935 Big Ten track meet in Ann Arbor, Michigan—a feat that has never been equaled.
Do you then believe Jesse Owens could have run faster than Usain Bolt if he was competing when Bolt was with same technology?
Your post is silly. Not the same drugs but there were drugs but without testing. I'm not accusing him. I don't accuse anyone without evidence and I am not going to clear anyone just because.
Drugs were in their infancy in the mid-sixties and not known to be then present in distance running. You are failing to see that doping has developed alongside the sport in the last fifty years to the extent they have become indistinguishable. That wasn't so in Ryun's era.
Drugs were present at all levels. I ran in HS in the mid/late 1960s and the coach would pass out "uppers" before a race. No one questioned the practice.
Of course, drugs of that era were not as efficacious or targeted for distance running as today's sophisticated concoctions. But if something is available athletes will try it.
In the very early years of the Olympics marathon runners used strychnine to enhance their performance, sometimes with disastrous results.
Drugs were in their infancy in the mid-sixties and not known to be then present in distance running. You are failing to see that doping has developed alongside the sport in the last fifty years to the extent they have become indistinguishable. That wasn't so in Ryun's era.
Just stop digging in. You are wrong. You started off as an over the top J Ryun fanboy, now you are making false statements. Amphetamines were available with little to no testing. Amphetamines were widely used openly by many pro athletes in numerous sports to 35 or 40 years ago. Buckets of amphetamines in locker rooms.
Ryun competed over 55 years ago.i
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.