Here is a Simeon-less top 9 for just track, not xc. Only 9 because I believe he slots in somewhere in the top 10, so he is the tenth.
1. Jim Ryun
2. Gerry Lindgren
3. Hobbs kessler
4. Lukas Verzbicas
5. Alan Webb
6. Colin Sahlman
7. Drew Hunter
8. Lex Young
9. German Fernandez
I think you could argue him anywhere between 6th and 10th, but I'd favor the latter. It might seem hard to argue Lex over him after the season he's just had, including beating Lex today, but the mile isn't everything.
In combined 1500, 1600, mile rankings, Simeon is 4th and lex isn't ranked. In combined 3000, 3200, 2 mile rankings, Simeon is 2nd and lex is 6th (by .01 by the T&F News conversion, so it depends on the conversion). In the 5000m, Simeon isn't ranked and Lex is 1st. Id say 1st and 6th (as a junior indoors) and 2nd and 4th (in the same week) are pretty similar, but Id probably opt for the one with the record.
So I'd put Simeon at 9th, and I'll wait for the German Fernandez fans to come yell at me.
People naturally get better at anything over time (world records only go in one direction). This can be attributed to popularity, improvements in training, improvements in tools, etc.
So in order to be the G.O.A.T. runner, it is at the very least necessary that a runner has to actually clocked faster times than runners of old. Note that just a few years ago, we saw a HS'er best Birnbaum's PR in the 1500m, and way back in the 1970s, Ryun ran a faster mile than Birnbaum's best mile. So Birnbaum already fails by default.
Given the improvements in competition, tools, coaching, training philosophies, etc. running faster times is not sufficient to be the G.O.A.T.-- you'd need to be comparatively stronger than your peers than runners of yesterday. But Birnbaum wasn't even top 10 in cross country, has a slower 5k than several prep runners this year, and just edged his peers today. I would put him at the top of his class, but you could very easily make an argument for Young too. Quite a far cry from Ryun besting an Olympic Gold medal winner and WR holder while in HS.
Ryun's performance that day was still the best ever by a high school miler - and it's not really even close.
Definitely.
How would you come down on Ryun vs. Jakob as a u18/u20? I imagine we’d see some divisiveness on that one.
Yeah, I don't even know how to compare them because their circumstances are so different. Imagine if they switched places, where Ryun grew up in a running family with older brothers to train with and his father as coach and every conceivable opportunity and advantage to fulfill his potential. And then imagine Jakob running for a HS program in the 1960s where his coach essentially was winging it with such a prodigious talent. Would Jakob have been better than Ryun in that environment? I actually doubt it, but we will never know.
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A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good
Snell might not have been in his best form for that race but Ryun also beat the reigning Olympic Silver medalist (Josef Odložil) and the American record holder, Jim Grelle, who had set the record less than 2 weeks before. In fact, Ryun set a new AR in that race.
Ryun's performance that day was still the best ever by a high school miler - and it's not really even close.
Just curious, do you think Jakob's 3:31 at 18 was more impressive than Ryun's 3:55? I'd put Jakob's performance way above Ryun's, which I rank right above/below Kessler's 3:34 depending on the argument I'm making.
The only goat claim Birnbaum can make is having the best week of any HSer ever. That wasn't something I'd ever thought about until like 2 days ago, but it was mad impressive lol. Whenever one of these threads pop up, all the Ryun stans go flocking to bring him up, and every time it happens, I'm surprised at how good he was. The 1960s are practically prehistory, but he was out here running 3:55 ftw.
This post was edited 53 seconds after it was posted.
Reason provided:
omg he answered my question while i was typing it
I say this on every thread... define your terms first and then find the person to fit the description. Instead, most people pick their favorite runner (or belief in general) and then work backward to "prove" their guy is the best.
Define "HS Distance GOAT" and after you've done that, check to see if Jim Ryun or Gerry Lindgen or Birnbaum or whoever fits your description.
Here is my definition: The HS GOAT is the runner with the best range, the times closest to the elites of the sport (not just other high schoolers), HS records, and a lot of big-time victories. If you have all four of those on your resume, then you can be in the GOAT conversation.
Personally, I think Birnbaum is close. At the moment, he is the best of this generation, but historically there are guys in every event who were better than him.
If there was HS Olympics and all these guys did all the events, Birnbaum might have a lot of silvers and bronzes but probably no golds. Here are guys that could beat him if they all were running at their peak like Birnbaum is right now. This is not a short list, so I don't think you can say SB is the GOAT:
800 - Granville, Flatt, Sumner, Kersh, Brazier
1500 - Ryun, Webb, Kessler
Mile - Ryun, Webb, Kessler, Colin Sahlman, Leo Young
3000 - Nico Young, Lex Young, Drew Hunter, German Fernandez
I say this on every thread... define your terms first and then find the person to fit the description. Instead, most people pick their favorite runner (or belief in general) and then work backward to "prove" their guy is the best.
Define "HS Distance GOAT" and after you've done that, check to see if Jim Ryun or Gerry Lindgen or Birnbaum or whoever fits your description.
Here is my definition: The HS GOAT is the runner with the best range, the times closest to the elites of the sport (not just other high schoolers), HS records, and a lot of big-time victories. If you have all four of those on your resume, then you can be in the GOAT conversation.
Personally, I think Birnbaum is close. At the moment, he is the best of this generation, but historically there are guys in every event who were better than him.
If there was HS Olympics and all these guys did all the events, Birnbaum might have a lot of silvers and bronzes but probably no golds. Here are guys that could beat him if they all were running at their peak like Birnbaum is right now. This is not a short list, so I don't think you can say SB is the GOAT:
800 - Granville, Flatt, Sumner, Kersh, Brazier
1500 - Ryun, Webb, Kessler
Mile - Ryun, Webb, Kessler, Colin Sahlman, Leo Young
3000 - Nico Young, Lex Young, Drew Hunter, German Fernandez
I say this on every thread... define your terms first and then find the person to fit the description. Instead, most people pick their favorite runner (or belief in general) and then work backward to "prove" their guy is the best.
Define "HS Distance GOAT" and after you've done that, check to see if Jim Ryun or Gerry Lindgen or Birnbaum or whoever fits your description.
Here is my definition: The HS GOAT is the runner with the best range, the times closest to the elites of the sport (not just other high schoolers), HS records, and a lot of big-time victories. If you have all four of those on your resume, then you can be in the GOAT conversation.
Personally, I think Birnbaum is close. At the moment, he is the best of this generation, but historically there are guys in every event who were better than him.
If there was HS Olympics and all these guys did all the events, Birnbaum might have a lot of silvers and bronzes but probably no golds. Here are guys that could beat him if they all were running at their peak like Birnbaum is right now. This is not a short list, so I don't think you can say SB is the GOAT:
800 - Granville, Flatt, Sumner, Kersh, Brazier
1500 - Ryun, Webb, Kessler
Mile - Ryun, Webb, Kessler, Colin Sahlman, Leo Young
3000 - Nico Young, Lex Young, Drew Hunter, German Fernandez
You think Leo Young beats Birnbaum in a mile? That’s weird.
Well, that is based on the 3:39 1500 that Leo just ran. But you are right, it isn't a gimme.
And I don't have a strong betting interest one way or another, these are just guys who have PRs that are faster, the same, or very close to Birnbaum at ever distance. My point is that you can't be the GOAT if there are 20 names on a list with equal resumes (or better).
That's a good point. I was just pulling from memory...
My point is just that all these guys would be mixing it up with SB at all these distances. You can't be the GOAT if there are 20 other guys with similar/better resumes ranging from 800m to XC to national teams to national records, etc.
I agree with you. I was just saying that there are GOAT candidates at almost every distance and while SB is "in the mix," he isn't a clear GOAT by any means.
As for "this generation," I just meant in current post-pandemic, super-shoe era.
You can't compare the level of training, racing opportunities, shoes, tracks, coaching, teammates, that these kids have with what German Fernandez was working with. Heck, GF ran his 1600/3200 historical double and still pulled a 4 hour shift at Dominoes that same night. Kids these days are living like sponsored professional athletes (and training like them too) so I hope they'd be better than dudes in from the era of black and white TV like Gerry Lindgren!
You think Leo Young beats Birnbaum in a mile? That’s weird.
Well, that is based on the 3:39 1500 that Leo just ran. But you are right, it isn't a gimme.
But…Birnbaum ran a 3:37.9 1500 two days after closing an 8:34 2 mile in 1:58, and two days before beating Leo head to head in a mile? I know it’s not a guaranteed blowout each time out but did you miss the 3:37?
I agree with you. I was just saying that there are GOAT candidates at almost every distance and while SB is "in the mix," he isn't a clear GOAT by any means.
As for "this generation," I just meant in current post-pandemic, super-shoe era.
You can't compare the level of training, racing opportunities, shoes, tracks, coaching, teammates, that these kids have with what German Fernandez was working with. Heck, GF ran his 1600/3200 historical double and still pulled a 4 hour shift at Dominoes that same night. Kids these days are living like sponsored professional athletes (and training like them too) so I hope they'd be better than dudes in from the era of black and white TV like Gerry Lindgren!
Then Id take Kessler, Sahlman, Lex, and Leo for this generation.
By your criteria, Id have
Range: Sahlman and Leo, then Simeon, Lex, and Kessler (in order with the top 2 clearly distinguished)
Pro times: Kessler, then the rest are pretty similar
Records: Kessler and Lex, then Sahlman, Leo, and Simeon (XC records for the other two NP boys, which I don't think measure up to the track records of the first two)
Big time victories: Sahlman, Simeon, then Leo, Kessler, and Lex
Ascribing points 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 for each of these categories, +1 for a separate tier, 3 for everyone else in the pro times category, I get
Sahlman: 6+3+3+6 = 18
Kessler: 1+6+6+2 = 15
Leo: 5+3+2+3 = 13
Simeon: 3+3+1+5 = 12
Lex: 1+3+5+2 = 11
This scale is pretty good, but I don't think it does everything. It really sells short XC achievements and doesn't give Simeon credit for any of his crazy times because they aren't records, rather #2 and #4. Also, anyone running pro races doesn't get credit for big time victories. No high schooler of their time could touch Webb or Kessler over a mile, but they came in 4th and 5th respectively in the pro fields iirc. Sahlman is the only one here who won a pro race.
I would probably take all 4 over Simeon all things considered, but it's pretty close.