Marathon Pace (MP) % of HR Max?

JonDCH wrote:Attempting to run the first half at 89%MHR could be a recipe for disaster?

Agreed. I believe I already said that.

PETE: I HAVE A HR TEST PROBLEM/QUESTION....

I JUST GOT MY FIRST MONITER...

TEST RESULTS: 125 B.P.M. = 10:30 MILE

135 B.P.M. = 9:10 MILE

145 B.P.M. = 8:15 MILE

152 B.P.M. = 7:30 MILE ("MAXED" OUT!) SO...

152 B.P.M. = 3:30 1/2 MILE

152 B.P.M. = 4:00,1/2MI+3:45,1/2MI

TOOK :90'S BREAK BETWEEN EACH OF THE 6 ABOVE RUNS...

I'M 51 YEARS OLD. APPEARS MY MAX HR HAS "FADED"... OR MAYBE I NEED TO A REST DAY BEFORE THE TEST???

I'VE AVERAGED 40 MI/WK FOR THE LAST 2 MONTHS... MOST OF IT AT 140 TO 150 B.P.M. (ALSO BEEN DOING SOME MILE AND 1/2 MI REPETES AT 7 - 8:00 PACE...)

AFTER 6 MONTHS OF RUNNING, AFTER A LONG LAY-OFF, I HAD MY HEART SET ON BEGINNING 5 & 10k RACING SOON... IS THIS ALLOWED IN THE HADD SYSTEM, IN THE "BASE" PERIOND?

THANKS IN ADVANCE...

Bump

Thank you for all of your input Pete. Great stuff. I had a long run planned for yesterday (16 miles). I decided to do a HADD mini test in the middle of my run to get a gauge where my marathon pace is currently at:

Mile 1 @ 120HR (8:42)

Mile 2 @ 130HR (7:40)

Mile 3 @ 140HR (6:48)

Mile 4 @ 150HR (6:02)

Mile 5 @ 160HR (5:44)

I felt fairly comfortable at 150. Could have sustained that pace for about an hour plus. I imagine my MP pace is somewhere between 145-148. I have a half marathon scheduled for Feb 5. I plan to go out at MP pace for 10 miles and if all is going well, push it for the last 5K.

Pete:

I value your data and am not trying to be a pained antagonist. I'm genuinely trying to get a handle on realities. I know from my own experience of tracking my HR max that many people slightly underestimate this figure. Certainly the general formulas are useless; I'm 47 and my current HR max is 196. Two years ago is was 198. The formulas say it should be in the high 170s. They're useless.

I went out and made a test yesterday during a long run on which I wore a HR monitor. I began very slowly (HR 145 or so) but by midpoint had found a steady-state groove at HR 170, which is (I'm without my calculator!) 87.5% of max. I wasn't moving at my imputed marathon pace--I've been training hard--but it certainly felt like marathon intensity. 3/3 breathing rate. At 173 there was a break point and a 3/2 rate suddenly felt right--I'd describe this as sub-threshold but approaching threshold. 177-178 was another palpable transition point and a 2/2 breathing rate suddenly kicked in. So I'd peg my threshold at 178-180, with anything over that slightly above threshold. Call 177, or 90% half marathon pace. Just a tick below threshold

I ran four half marathons last year and I know the feeling of half M pace.

Now, as the run continued and my buddy and I held pace at HR of 170-178, pushing past 12, 13 miles, I pushed a little harder, as though I were actually running a half marathon, and of course my HR went up. 182 seemed to stabilize--the isocapnic buffering zone, if I've read John Kellogg properly. Transitioning into 10K race pace. Sustainable in the 14th mile without much trouble, but clearly over threshold at 1:57 and counting, with some glycogen depletion making its presence felt.

In the last mile, mile 15, I picked it up even more--past 10K race pace--and in the final quarter I sprinted hard up a slight incline, watched my HR hit 195 and then, finally, 196. Maybe one more beat to be squeezed out, on a hot day, but not yesterday, as I felt everything give way. I backed way off and jogged the final hundred yards.

This is the way we run longer races: finding sustainable sub-threshold paces early on, holding them and, if possible, slightly inching them up as we go, then, as we know we've passed the danger point later in the race, increasing pace a bit. I suspect I'm not the only one to run the last mile or two of a half marathon at 10K intensity, as I did back in December

I'm extremely happy with the information I gathered yesterday--particularly the correlations I now have between breathing race transition points and HR, and HR and various subjective feeling-states. I should note that my actual pace at threshold was more than a minute [sic] slower than it "ought" to have been--8:00 pace or so, rather than slightly sub-7. I'm not worried. I trust HR and perceived effort, particularly when we're talking about heavy training weeks and long runs.

bump

Sorry, I haven't been paying much attention lately - been too busy with other things.First, let me qualify my input by saying I'm no expert or no coach. I just happen to have some interesting data that's been shared with me. Mind you, I will claim to understand Hadd's base training approach fairly well, so I can tackle some of the "hows" if not necessarily all of the "whys."

Braavo Furgi wrote:

PETE: I HAVE A HR TEST PROBLEM/QUESTION....

I JUST GOT MY FIRST MONITER...

TEST RESULTS: 125 B.P.M. = 10:30 MILE

135 B.P.M. = 9:10 MILE

145 B.P.M. = 8:15 MILE

152 B.P.M. = 7:30 MILE ("MAXED" OUT!) SO...

152 B.P.M. = 3:30 1/2 MILE

152 B.P.M. = 4:00,1/2MI+3:45,1/2MI

TOOK :90'S BREAK BETWEEN EACH OF THE 6 ABOVE RUNS...

I'M 51 YEARS OLD. APPEARS MY MAX HR HAS "FADED"... OR MAYBE I NEED TO A REST DAY BEFORE THE TEST???

I'VE AVERAGED 40 MI/WK FOR THE LAST 2 MONTHS... MOST OF IT AT 140 TO 150 B.P.M. (ALSO BEEN DOING SOME MILE AND 1/2 MI REPETES AT 7 - 8:00 PACE...)

AFTER 6 MONTHS OF RUNNING, AFTER A LONG LAY-OFF, I HAD MY HEART SET ON BEGINNING 5 & 10k RACING SOON... IS THIS ALLOWED IN THE HADD SYSTEM, IN THE "BASE" PERIOND?

THANKS IN ADVANCE...

I'm not sure I understand all of the data you posted. What "maxed out?" Did HR max out, or was this the hardest effort you felt you could manage for the mile, so made the next rep a half mile?

Anyway, to your question... Hadd's approach to base training starts from the point when you can run about 50 mpw at 75% or less of HRmax, at which point you start to introduce the aerobic work sessions (and continue to build mileage). It doesn't include mile and half mile repeats at some sort of race pace. Not that there's anything wrong with some interval training, but it doesn't fit into Hadd's base training.

If you want to try Hadd's approach, you need to have a really good estimate of your HRmax. It can certainly drop as you get older. It can also drop with training. You might get close to HRmax toward the end of a good 5k race effort, but it's better to test it by going to the track when you're fresh (like ready for a race). Do a good long warmup, then "race" 800m all out, stop, suck wind for 30s or so, then "race" 400m all out. Highest number you see during this session should be pretty close.

As to racing during Hadd's base training - he doesn't recommend a lot of training during this period, and in fact if you're doing it right, you're likely to see your 5k and 10k times drop off somewhat, since you're focussing (at this time) on aerobic fitness, somewhat at the expense of anaerobic fitness. But if you really want to race, once a month or so shouldn't detract from the training too much. Just don't expect fast times during the base training phase.

Pete wrote:As to racing during Hadd's base training - he doesn't recommend a lot of training during this period,

Doh!

Racing! He doesn't recommend a lot of RACING during this period.

hey pete,

perhaps this june, depends on how quickly I get through phase one.

Cheers

Pete, the figures you posted show that the runner's hear rate rises by about 10 beats in the last few miles, without an increase in pace and sometimes a decrease. This is obviously due to glycogen depletion and dehydration.

This dehydration skews the average figure somewhat.

I wonder, is it possible to avoid this dehydration, or is it an inevitable consequence of glycogen depletion?

Two questions:

1. What % should I aim for at different parts of the race? For example, if my max is around 194, should I stay under 174 (or some other number) for the first half?

2. How then should I use the HRM for MP training runs (e.g., 2wu, 10m at MP, 2cd)?

Thanks.

to give you some other data, so that you dont get so caught up in absolutes, i dont race the marthon near 88%HR. 88% heart rate is 4:42 mile pace for me and my name is not tergat. more like 82%, which is more like 4:58.

Shoes wrote:What % should I aim for at different parts of the race? For example, if my max is around 194, should I stay under 174 (or some other number) for the first half?

If you're asking me, I would say you shouldn't use the HRM to guide your race efforts. I think the HRM is a useful training tool, but come race day, you need to listen to your body. I hardly ever look at HR during a race.

Omaha wrote: to give you some other data, so that you dont get so caught up in absolutes, i dont race the marthon near 88%HR. 88% heart rate is 4:42 mile pace for me and my name is not tergat. more like 82%, which is more like 4:58.

Do you know this because you've worn an HRM for a whole marathon (and worked out the average afterward, or got it from the HRM directly), or because your typical HR at marathon pace in training (at distances less than the marathon) is about 82%? I ask because there's a significant difference between the two, and am wondering where you're coming from.

Pete: I've never worn a HRM for a marathon, but I'm planning on doing so just to get the data to help with training for a fall marathon. That said, I would assume that you would say that I should slow down if I were seeing 95% even if I were feeling great. I was asking more based on the statistical information that you have.

Also, could you provide some guidance re: the second point -- % for MP runs in training. Should they be run at the MP average HR or is that going to be too fast since the training run will be less than the full race? Thanks.

You've got to work your way up patiently to the 88-90 percent HR runs. This takes months of working up from below. Ideally, when you are really race ready, you can do a short warm up, then give yourself 15 minutes or so of steady MP running to get the HR up to 88 percent, and then have it stick there for another hour without significant drift or any slowing. This is very difficult to achieve and takes patiently working the same way at lower HRs first.

If you have a rock-solid certain HR Max, then yes, 95 percent in the first 20 miles is probably too fast. Personally, I wouldn't look at the HRM too often during the race. Just go by the feeling that's worked for you in past marathons and assess the data later.

Not Pete: I recently ran 2wu, 8m averaging at 88%, 2cd. My pace and HR during the 8m was rock solid. So I am proceding as you have suggested. My max is about 194, so I set the zone alarm at 168-175. Is that fine? I'm planning to do a longer MP run this weekend.

Yup.

Not Pete:

I'm beginning to understand this thread. Yes, I achieved a steady state yesterday of HR 170-171, which is 87% of my max of 196. Although such a heartrate would have felt strained after a mile or two, it felt like a locked-in groove when I worked up into it and settled there after 6 miles. If you'd told me I needed to hold it for an hour, I could have done that. (In fact, I did do that.) I surged once, to a noticeably faster pace, and let my HR hit 177, which was verging on threshold, just a hair shy of it. (It certainly wasn't 10K effort.)

So I'll stipulate that right now, 171/87% was my marathon pace and 177/90% was my half marathon pace. I'm not trained to run a marathon, but I see now what the respective effort levels are.

I'll stipulate two more things, and thank you for provoking me to think them through:

1) Although those two HRs/%of maxHR's are good baselines, I could probably improve both a percentage point or two with 4-6 months of focused training. It's hard to believe I couldn't, in fact.

2) Although those two HRs/%of maxHR's are good baselines for the first three quarters of a marathon and a half-marathon race, respectively, in actual competition I would surely push beyond both notch-points in the last quarter to third of either race, either to pick up my pace incrementally or simply to maintain pace as glycogen depletion becomes a factor.

I certainly plan on doing more training at HRs between 171-177--which is of course the space between marathon pace and half marathon pace where several good coaches (particularly JK; also Pfitz) have noted that solid aerobic progress can be made--IF that high-aerobic zone is worked into gently, progressively, without undue strain.

Hadd would probably agree, since his whole plan involves slowly working the LT training HR up--from 160 to 165 to 170, etc.