but 'most' is only 51%. there is definitely a culture of it within kenya when you compare with e.g. ethiopia which doesn't have a doping problem, generally speaking. it makes me respect the Ethiopians more because most of them are running to support their families but they don't give in to the temptation to cheat, like many of the kenyans do
There is a doping problem in Ethiopia. It is called lack of testing.
The type of result you get is a new doping bust every week. Funny how there are all of these hundreds of 2:08 runners in Iten, and yet so many of the 2:08 runners who do get the invites are busted for nandrolene, EPO, rat poison, and peds most of us haven't even heard of.
James competed domestically during those years. You will find the results in local online publications. And there are many marathon runners based outside of Iten.
Today's 2:08 runners are pre-supershoes 2:10-2:13 runners. Nothing superhuman there, nothing needing PEDs for many. It's nandrolone, not nandrolene.
Shoes do not make that big a difference. In Kipchoge's case it is less than a minute.
James competed domestically during those years. You will find the results in local online publications. And there are many marathon runners based outside of Iten.
Today's 2:08 runners are pre-supershoes 2:10-2:13 runners. Nothing superhuman there, nothing needing PEDs for many. It's nandrolone, not nandrolene.
Shoes do not make that big a difference. In Kipchoge's case it is less than a minute.
Shoes make a very significant difference. Check out all those Latin Americans running around 2:09:00-2:10:00 who posted very modest times 10,000 -marathon before super shoes. Castelblanco (Panama), Munoz (Argentina), Ayala (Paraguay) are some journeymen with 14:30/30:00/1:06:00 type credentials before the boing boing slippers....not dissing those guys....just saying...
James competed domestically during those years. You will find the results in local online publications. And there are many marathon runners based outside of Iten.
Today's 2:08 runners are pre-supershoes 2:10-2:13 runners. Nothing superhuman there, nothing needing PEDs for many. It's nandrolone, not nandrolene.
Shoes do not make that big a difference. In Kipchoge's case it is less than a minute.
They do. Kipchoge's fastest marathon in non-supershoes was 2:04:00. In supershoes 2:01:09. So even for Kipchoge we are looking at 3 minutes.
Knowing Ghost1's posting history I suspect he posted partly to set off the obvious 'doping suspect' convo. As he says, no overwhelming reason to suspect a Kenyan improving to high 2.08 to be doping. They do have somewhat extensive depth of elite long distance runners. But noone would be the slightest bit surprised if at some future date he were to be busted for PEDs or an anti-doping testing violation
The kenysns i read about getting bans are banned in competition, they arent being tested at home in kenya or at least they arent returning positive tests there. I cant remember the last ethiopian that i heard testing positive for anything, and they are racing just as much as the kenyans. Not saying it doesnt happen just that the kenyan dopers seem to outnumber them 10 to 1.
The kenysns i read about getting bans are banned in competition, they arent being tested at home in kenya or at least they arent returning positive tests there. I cant remember the last ethiopian that i heard testing positive for anything, and they are racing just as much as the kenyans. Not saying it doesnt happen just that the kenyan dopers seem to outnumber them 10 to 1.
The Ethiopians are very much controlled by their national federation which is much less present (AKA) in controlling their athletes in Kenya. Do Ethiopians have ethics which are superior to Kenyans? I doubt it - so the question remains open somewhat.
So posts discussing doping in Kenya are removed in a thread in which numerous other commenters have raised the subject of doping. Consistency is not a feature of moderation. In Kenyan running today, with busts every week, the only relevant question now is who is doping. But most of you here will do your best to avoid that.
Shoes do not make that big a difference. In Kipchoge's case it is less than a minute.
They do. Kipchoge's fastest marathon in non-supershoes was 2:04:00. In supershoes 2:01:09. So even for Kipchoge we are looking at 3 minutes.
Some of the fastest runners pre-supershoes haven't improved on their times. Comparisons made of competitors in a series of marathons before and after the new shoes showed an average of 0.8% improvement in the top men. However, what that improvement doesn't take account of is doping - and we know for a fact that it is present, and indeed amongst Kenyan elites it is likely to be the norm. Shoes are not the only improvement in technology.
To reinforce the point that shoes and doping cannot necessarily be assessed independently of each other, we saw that the world half-marathon record holder Abraham Kiptum was subsequently busted for doping. How much of his improvement that saw him break the record in 2018 was because of the shoes and how much of it was through doping - which we know he did?
The kenysns i read about getting bans are banned in competition, they arent being tested at home in kenya or at least they arent returning positive tests there. I cant remember the last ethiopian that i heard testing positive for anything, and they are racing just as much as the kenyans. Not saying it doesnt happen just that the kenyan dopers seem to outnumber them 10 to 1.
It's an interesting question and need an answer. I doubt very much it's a matter of greater ethics. There have been at least a couple of Ethiopian or Eritrean born athletes competing for European countries busted, such as Robel Fsiha the European junior xcountry champion. He was busted the day after 21 year old Abadi Hadis died of mysterious causes in an Ethiopian hospital. Both shared the same manager - Juan Pineda, who is widely regarded as a front for Jama Aden. This is the only sport in the world where a 17 year old could get popped, and a 21 year old die the next day, and the manager of both of them (who has clear connections to another manager sanctioned by WADA) not get sanctioned himself or even investigated. I even had a thread about it here deleted by the gracious mods of this site, presumably for 'racism'. Sometimes the state of this sport literally makes me want to vomit.
My bet would be that Ethiopians are doping just as much, but they are a bit more sophisticated about it, and there is more to a state sponsored air to it. Remember that the GDR modelled their system on Ethiopia in the 70's, and Beyer, Straub trained with Yifter in Ethiopia, and vice versa.
Also, the AIU is conducting its investigations more 'intelligence based'. That apparently means that they are investigating more the networks surrounding each caught athlete. As there have been so few busted Ethiopians as yet, they haven't got so much to work on. Perhaps there will be 2 or 3 busts in the next year or two and then the floodgates will open. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
The kenysns i read about getting bans are banned in competition, they arent being tested at home in kenya or at least they arent returning positive tests there. I cant remember the last ethiopian that i heard testing positive for anything, and they are racing just as much as the kenyans. Not saying it doesnt happen just that the kenyan dopers seem to outnumber them 10 to 1.
It's an interesting question and need an answer. I doubt very much it's a matter of greater ethics. There have been at least a couple of Ethiopian or Eritrean born athletes competing for European countries busted, such as Robel Fsiha the European junior xcountry champion. He was busted the day after 21 year old Abadi Hadis died of mysterious causes in an Ethiopian hospital.
My bet would be that Ethiopians are doping just as much, but they are a bit more sophisticated about it, and there is more to a state sponsored air to it. Remember that the GDR modelled their system on Ethiopia in the 70's, and Beyer, Straub trained with Yifter in Ethiopia, and vice versa.
Also, the AIU is conducting its investigations more 'intelligence based'. That apparently means that they are investigating more the networks surrounding each caught athlete. As there have been so few busted Ethiopians as yet, they haven't got so much to work on. Perhaps there will be 2 or 3 busts in the next year or two and then the floodgates will open. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
It's possible though that the 'average' elite Ethiopian enduro is less inclined to cheat than the 'average' Kenyan counterpart. Just as one can argue, from evidence as is available, that Scandinavians are less likely to cheat in elite sport than Spanish or Belarussians; and Spanish less likely to cheat than Moroccans, so there may be tendencies in diffeernt East African sporting cultures. I don't know of course.
There is a very high correlation of African endurance 'nation hoppers' getting caught for doping, though maybe somewhat skewed by quite how many are ex MAR.
The kenysns i read about getting bans are banned in competition, they arent being tested at home in kenya or at least they arent returning positive tests there.
This is actually not correct. Most of their stars were caught out-of-competition in Kenya by the AIU, including Kiprop + Kiptum + Cherono + Kipserem etc., plus for missing tests in Kenya, such as Kipsang.
Who was caught in competition? Kipyokei and Renju, yes, but usually that happens only to tier II runners.
Another thing, as can be seen currently on Letsrun's homepage: ADAK actually imposed 22 (!) secret bans and 9 (!) secret provisional bans, as just came out a few days ago, including another Rotterdam winner...
So posts discussing doping in Kenya are removed in a thread in which numerous other commenters have raised the subject of doping. Consistency is not a feature of moderation. In Kenyan running today, with busts every week, the only relevant question now is who is doping. But most of you here will do your best to avoid that.
Don't see any 'deleted posts' in this thread....you have posted plenty, we kind of get your opinion now, give others a chance
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