Cram 1:43 - Why Aren't 800's Run Like This Anymore?

Were you drunk when you posted this?

The schedule at Helsinki 83 was very tight, and I don't think anybody doubled the 800 and 1500. Ovett didn't, and (I could be wrong here) but even Coe only intended to run the 800m (before pulling out).

In 84 Cram was struggling with injury. He had his hands full with the 1500m.

In 87 he was again having problems.

In 88, he chose to double, which probably cost him a chance of the 1500m gold.

BTW, how many Americans have doubled in the last 60 or 70 years? Why was Jim Ryun too chickenshi!t to run the 800m in 1968 when he was the world record holder?

You can't really compare a 1:44.5 race closed in 24.8 with three guys in contention with a 1:43.22 closed in 25.0 with no one close. The latter is intrinsically superior. Cram won three out of the four championships in 1986, Commonwealth 800m and 1500m and European 1500m, third at Euro 800m. He closed the race linked above with a 37.7 last 300m, which is rarely equalled even in a 3:41 race. Cram set world records at 1500m and the mile. The latter stood until Morcelipo. He ran 2:12 high in the 1000m and 1:42.88 in the 800m. One or both of the latter were windy. He looked supremely good in each of those top 800s and had more in the tank. I believe he beat Cruz, the 1:41.7 man, soundly in the 1:42.88. So, he was clearly capable of faster with a bit quicker initial pace, not 49 but 50 mid might have led to 1:42 low or better. For a guy who was a great 800m runner from much early on, Coe only beat Cram's best 800m twice his entire career, and only beat the 1:43.22 three times (Cram ran faster than that twice in 1985-86, with 1:42.88 and 1:43.19). Cram's first really strong 800m was in 1983 when he ran 1:43.61. Cram ran under 1:44 six times and ran under 1:44 three times, as well as 1:45 4 times. Coe ran under 1:44 nine times, plus 13 1:44s (and one indoors) and 23 1:45s. So, Cram has just 13 performances under 1:46 in the database, while Coe has 46 performances. In short, Coe took a lot more attempts at the 800m than Cram. Cram won his three best 800m races and none of them had a quick opening lap. So, in all likelihood, he was not maxed out at 800m. It's true that he didn't have great basic speed like Coe or Rudisha. 48.1 for time trial indicates that in a race he would have run in the 47s, probably mid. You cannot run your best in a time trial, especially not in the sprints when you are a distance runner. But Cram just did not train for top speed. He would have been faster, just as Jakob would be faster, if he had, though he might have gotten injured in the attempt. But his training consisted of, among the faster items, 57s for 400s, despite being a 3:46 miler, with 15s per 100m rest, and then a lot of 26s and 27s for 200m, plus some quicker 23s. In his training program, there just is not much room for faster than 800-1k work, some but not much. Nonetheless, only a few guys in history like Ovett and Cram had the ability to outkick him off of a slow pace.

Listen, I'm the OP. I posted this because every "fast" 800m runner wants to get to 600m below 1:16... my point was that Cram was patient, hit about 1:18 and hammered home. Too many modern-day 800m men simply want to go out in 50-point and "hang-on".. .it's a terrible strategy.

Thanks for the revisionist history mate but it's all totally irrelevant. Rudisha wasn't entered, and the race didn't go out in 49/1.14. It went out in just over 51, he was around 51.8 and he closed in 25.2

That logic is so ridiculous that's like saying about Ingebrigtsen winning the Olympic 1500m last year "well had El G been in the field he probably would have just entered the 5000, let alone gone out in 1.50 and/or 2.46 at 1200m".

I made a case based on what has actually happened historically in the 800m. The only other race I could think of that was so slow through 600m with such a quality finishing time was Kipketer in Monaco 1997. So if you have some actual history/races you want to put on the table vs irrelevant hypotheticals then let's hear them.

Sal, are you being real? You said, and I quote, "I've always maintained that on this day and in this race Cram might have beaten ANYONE IN HISTORY."

And, no, Denmark is not part of the Commonwealth Games.

EPO has always existed and it exists today under other names and others diets.

Not throwing others with (dubious) accusations to console his own failures, is the thing that never existed.

That's interesting. I thought he might have been capable of 22-high, like Walker, but 23-plus indicates what phenomenal speed endurance he had in order to run a really good 800 with such modest basic speed.

munich changed because this was the first multisports championships. theyve made a concerted effort to bring european championships from across sport together every four years and rebrand it as a kind of european olympics to make it bigger

The day when Steve Cram put all optimale conditions beat Aouita WR and failed:

(Brussels 1986)

and he was damn in good shape (1:43:16 in the 800m two days later).

Aouita had at least one year lost dealing with the Brit milers.

Armstrong, you got the other thread completely deleted? Your way of handling hopeless situations?

Cram closed around 41.4/54.7. The third lap, around 57, cost him the chance, as he was not quite in the same shape as the previous year--but still good shape--and could not close as fast as in his mile record (53). It would have helped to have competition the last lap as with Aouita coming at him in Cram's 1500m record.

Also, with regard to the 1:43.22, he ran even per 400m, but his second 400m was by no means even. He ran about 26.4/25.0. So, he had plenty in the tank that day and could have gone harder earlier and been under 1:43 certainly.

I absolutely agree with you on this one. I frequently have this talk with other old runners over a beer. I had a similar even paced and patient race pattern and it brought me to several PR's. It seems like the most success now a days comes from time trial running rather than actual racing.

Not sure what you are saying here. Are you comparing "fast" 800 runners to "resistant" ones? In this race, McKean would be the fast guy and Cram would be the resistant guy. Or is "fast" just shorthand for pb of, say, 1:44 or better?

First time I heard of Cram was when he appeared in Sports Illustrated "Faces in the Crowd" section. Ran a 3:57 mile at age 17.

I didn't delete it. But you are right - there was a lot of hopeless comment on it, as is typically the case on Letsrun.

So, maybe you can answer the questions here?

1:44.3 by Peter Snell in 1962 on grass and 4:51.4 by John Walker in 1976 were fantastic performances. Definitely worth maybe close to 1:42 and 4:47 under current conditions.

Do you think Snell and Walker used PEDs, yes or no?

If "no", why do you accuse almost any athlete who runs exceptionally fast to dope?

LOL this is garbage. Maybe it makes slow runners feel better about their 800m chances, but that is a disservice.

He himself stated he ran a 48.1 as a TIME TRIAL. Obviously 47.X ability, which checks out for a someone who usually opened his best races in 51.

Except for the current 800m WR and all of the world leads for years.

Cram was not in the shape he was in in 85.

Here is Aouita failing to break Cram's mile WR, despite perfect pacing and 3 seconds up on Cram's mark at the bell. And this was 2 days before Aouita set his 1500m WR, so he was in absolutely the best shape of his life. Cram ran the 800m this same meet and destroyed Cruz in 1:42. That was memorable, but it's a shame that Aouita wouldn't let him face him in the mile. Cram would likely have ran 3:43/3:44.