The advantage to training at 2.5-3.5 mmol is that it trains your ability to clear lactate almost as well as higher intensities without accumulating as much lactate in the blood and muscles, so one can do more volume of work. Tinman’s CV workouts are closer to 5 mmol.
I appreciate the responses in this thread; not only this quoted one but all of them. Makes for great discussion.
I am going to ask a pragmatic question here: I know much of this is paced on actual, real-time blood testing to dial in the pace/effort. I get pacing-to-lactate levels will vary across not only athletes, but also within an individual athlete across various sessions/efforts/conditions (heat, accumulated fatigue). But let's try to best match a pace as an analogue to these lactate mmol levels, and let's pick a 15:00 5km athlete as an example. His or her Daniel's T pace is 5:14. The Tinman Threshold and CV pace ranges are 5:23 - 5:15 and 5:08 - 5:01. I *think* Pfitzinger would also have around a 5:15 LT pace (but I don't have his books in front of me).
Roughly what would we think the Norwegian training pace would be for this athlete compared to those training paces from other author's training plan. I'm having a hard time thinking of what effort and pace that may roughly equate to compared to other training efforts.
It looks like fkkfkfkfkf posted good info while I had my question opened up as a draft. That does give some idea (something around Half to MP is what I was thinking as well, but still curious).
I appreciate the responses in this thread; not only this quoted one but all of them. Makes for great discussion.
I am going to ask a pragmatic question here: I know much of this is paced on actual, real-time blood testing to dial in the pace/effort. I get pacing-to-lactate levels will vary across not only athletes, but also within an individual athlete across various sessions/efforts/conditions (heat, accumulated fatigue). But let's try to best match a pace as an analogue to these lactate mmol levels, and let's pick a 15:00 5km athlete as an example. His or her Daniel's T pace is 5:14. The Tinman Threshold and CV pace ranges are 5:23 - 5:15 and 5:08 - 5:01. I *think* Pfitzinger would also have around a 5:15 LT pace (but I don't have his books in front of me).
Roughly what would we think the Norwegian training pace would be for this athlete compared to those training paces from other author's training plan. I'm having a hard time thinking of what effort and pace that may roughly equate to compared to other training efforts.
It looks like fkkfkfkfkf posted good info while I had my question opened up as a draft. That does give some idea (something around Half to MP is what I was thinking as well, but still curious).
I'd say it would be around 5:17 for the 3.0 (half ) and 5:30 (full) for the 2.5.
Let me shortly clarify this with lactate threshold and double thresholds. It`s not an "invention" by the Norwegians Bakken and Ingebrigtsens. Already back in the time of "the Portuguese and Italian wonders" the world top runners did this kind of LT:s and " double thresholds" , but the difference they didn`t call it double thresholds and so on. If one check the times of the reps or sustained runs they were similar to the runners lactate thresholds or a little slower. And as someone else in this thread pointed out used by many top runners in history. There is no need for hill reps like the 2 x 10 x 200 m by the Ingebrigtsens to run faster than anyone has done up to date , and there is no need for double thresholds either. To e.g become the first man running a sub 12:30 at 5000 takes only 6 sessions per week and e.g maxVO2 interval 20 x 400m at around 60 sec and about 60 sec rest and repeat it mostly week by week with a quite controlled feeling not hard and a LT-interval at 65-66 sec/ 400m pace. Then just back it up with easy steady runs at about 5:40-5:50 mile pace.Looks too "easy" to be true? Yes, of course looks too "easy" to be true by most runners and coaches that think and belive it really must "got to be" complicated .This I talk about is a "natural law" and about "relative speeds" guaranteed to produce the intended effect. Well, then of course you must have that extremely talanted runner to perform that speed in training with just medium controlled effort .Keep it simple, that`s the best way to do it.
The advantage to training at 2.5-3.5 mmol is that it trains your ability to clear lactate almost as well as higher intensities without accumulating as much lactate in the blood and muscles, so one can do more volume of work. Tinman’s CV workouts are closer to 5 mmol.
I appreciate the responses in this thread; not only this quoted one but all of them. Makes for great discussion.
I am going to ask a pragmatic question here: I know much of this is paced on actual, real-time blood testing to dial in the pace/effort. I get pacing-to-lactate levels will vary across not only athletes, but also within an individual athlete across various sessions/efforts/conditions (heat, accumulated fatigue). But let's try to best match a pace as an analogue to these lactate mmol levels, and let's pick a 15:00 5km athlete as an example. His or her Daniel's T pace is 5:14. The Tinman Threshold and CV pace ranges are 5:23 - 5:15 and 5:08 - 5:01. I *think* Pfitzinger would also have around a 5:15 LT pace (but I don't have his books in front of me).
Roughly what would we think the Norwegian training pace would be for this athlete compared to those training paces from other author's training plan. I'm having a hard time thinking of what effort and pace that may roughly equate to compared to other training efforts.
You can't really convert the BL to paces as rest matters. If I run a 5 pace for 8 mins, I might be up at 8 mmol. If I do 16*400 with 60s rest, I might peak at 5.
The numbers I have seen have JI running 21 km/h for the longer reps. I have never seen numbers for the 400s.
If you don't have access to testing, those T paces are in the ballpark but make sure to adjust for conditions and be realistic about if you are in the same shape.
I appreciate the responses in this thread; not only this quoted one but all of them. Makes for great discussion.
I am going to ask a pragmatic question here: I know much of this is paced on actual, real-time blood testing to dial in the pace/effort. I get pacing-to-lactate levels will vary across not only athletes, but also within an individual athlete across various sessions/efforts/conditions (heat, accumulated fatigue). But let's try to best match a pace as an analogue to these lactate mmol levels, and let's pick a 15:00 5km athlete as an example. His or her Daniel's T pace is 5:14. The Tinman Threshold and CV pace ranges are 5:23 - 5:15 and 5:08 - 5:01. I *think* Pfitzinger would also have around a 5:15 LT pace (but I don't have his books in front of me).
Roughly what would we think the Norwegian training pace would be for this athlete compared to those training paces from other author's training plan. I'm having a hard time thinking of what effort and pace that may roughly equate to compared to other training efforts.
You can't really convert the BL to paces as rest matters. If I run a 5 pace for 8 mins, I might be up at 8 mmol. If I do 16*400 with 60s rest, I might peak at 5.
The numbers I have seen have JI running 21 km/h for the longer reps. I have never seen numbers for the 400s.
If you don't have access to testing, those T paces are in the ballpark but make sure to adjust for conditions and be realistic about if you are in the same shape.
Completely understood and acknowledged. Of course the point of this "edge of threshold" training (my own name for it) is to work under that edge of lactate accumulation. I just know that most of us train by RPE, pace, or HR because we don't have access to the lactate measurements in real time. Over time, we can dial those in and calibrate a given effort to a given pace and even a given HR - but other variables do cause that to change day-to-day. Just was looking for some idea to help envision what ballpark those efforts/paces might be (with appropriate, corresponding rest). All that said, your reply is helpful and appreciated.
It needs to be defined which threshold we talk about. Some mean 4mmol threshold, some TH60 (pace you can hold for 60 minutes) some others.
There are only 2 real metabolic thresholds, which is the Lactate Threshold (=first rise of lactate above base line) and the Critical Power/Velocity/speed. So e.g. TH60 is about 95%CV. Some say training above threshold is better to improve speed at LT. But which threshold they mean?
To avoid this sloppy training language it is better to use either the duration (e.g.TH60) or %CV for high intensity training.
Lactate levels can't be compared from athlete to athlete, this is a common mistake people do. A lactate value is the result of lactate appearance and clearance. So one value for both things together.
Not mentioned so far is, that too much high intensity training hinders/damage mitochondria. The reason for that is unclear but there is some evidence for it. Maybe a broken tempo run something like 5*6min is much better than 30min continuous for that reason.
It needs to be defined which threshold we talk about. Some mean 4mmol threshold, some TH60 (pace you can hold for 60 minutes) some others.
There are only 2 real metabolic thresholds, which is the Lactate Threshold (=first rise of lactate above base line) and the Critical Power/Velocity/speed. So e.g. TH60 is about 95%CV. Some say training above threshold is better to improve speed at LT. But which threshold they mean?
To avoid this sloppy training language it is better to use either the duration (e.g.TH60) or %CV for high intensity training.
Lactate levels can't be compared from athlete to athlete, this is a common mistake people do. A lactate value is the result of lactate appearance and clearance. So one value for both things together.
Not mentioned so far is, that too much high intensity training hinders/damage mitochondria. The reason for that is unclear but there is some evidence for it. Maybe a broken tempo run something like 5*6min is much better than 30min continuous for that reason.
Congratulations, pretty much everything you said is wrong.
The advantage to training at 2.5-3.5 mmol is that it trains your ability to clear lactate almost as well as higher intensities without accumulating as much lactate in the blood and muscles, so one can do more volume of work. Tinman’s CV workouts are closer to 5 mmol.
I appreciate the responses in this thread; not only this quoted one but all of them. Makes for great discussion.
I am going to ask a pragmatic question here: I know much of this is paced on actual, real-time blood testing to dial in the pace/effort. I get pacing-to-lactate levels will vary across not only athletes, but also within an individual athlete across various sessions/efforts/conditions (heat, accumulated fatigue). But let's try to best match a pace as an analogue to these lactate mmol levels, and let's pick a 15:00 5km athlete as an example. His or her Daniel's T pace is 5:14. The Tinman Threshold and CV pace ranges are 5:23 - 5:15 and 5:08 - 5:01. I *think* Pfitzinger would also have around a 5:15 LT pace (but I don't have his books in front of me).
Roughly what would we think the Norwegian training pace would be for this athlete compared to those training paces from other author's training plan. I'm having a hard time thinking of what effort and pace that may roughly equate to compared to other training efforts.
Run the 20x400 with 30sec jog at T pace or a little faster. Run the 5x6min with 1min jog a little faster than M pace. This will get you to 3-4mmol (at sea level).
Let me shortly clarify this with lactate threshold and double thresholds. It`s not an "invention" by the Norwegians Bakken and Ingebrigtsens. Already back in the time of "the Portuguese and Italian wonders" the world top runners did this kind of LT:s and " double thresholds" , but the difference they didn`t call it double thresholds and so on. If one check the times of the reps or sustained runs they were similar to the runners lactate thresholds or a little slower. And as someone else in this thread pointed out used by many top runners in history. There is no need for hill reps like the 2 x 10 x 200 m by the Ingebrigtsens to run faster than anyone has done up to date , and there is no need for double thresholds either. To e.g become the first man running a sub 12:30 at 5000 takes only 6 sessions per week and e.g maxVO2 interval 20 x 400m at around 60 sec and about 60 sec rest and repeat it mostly week by week with a quite controlled feeling not hard and a LT-interval at 65-66 sec/ 400m pace. Then just back it up with easy steady runs at about 5:40-5:50 mile pace.Looks too "easy" to be true? Yes, of course looks too "easy" to be true by most runners and coaches that think and belive it really must "got to be" complicated .This I talk about is a "natural law" and about "relative speeds" guaranteed to produce the intended effect. Well, then of course you must have that extremely talanted runner to perform that speed in training with just medium controlled effort .Keep it simple, that`s the best way to do it.
All these dumb theories! Maybe he got DVT from long haul air travel like many other people or due to many possible reasons. But oh no it must definitely be form the vaccine or from EPO or steroids!
The drugs accusations are particularly unfair. The kid ran 1:53 at 14, 1:49 at 15, 1:47 at 16, 1:45 at 17, 1:44 at 18 and 19 and 1:43 this year at 20. He is a phenomenal talent. Has he been doping since he was 14? He would have beaten Cade Flatt easily when he was two years younger than him. His progression looks very believable and he has no association with anyone involved in doping as far as I know.
The advantage to training at 2.5-3.5 mmol is that it trains your ability to clear lactate almost as well as higher intensities without accumulating as much lactate in the blood and muscles, so one can do more volume of work. Tinman’s CV workouts are closer to 5 mmol.
I appreciate the responses in this thread; not only this quoted one but all of them. Makes for great discussion.
I am going to ask a pragmatic question here: I know much of this is paced on actual, real-time blood testing to dial in the pace/effort. I get pacing-to-lactate levels will vary across not only athletes, but also within an individual athlete across various sessions/efforts/conditions (heat, accumulated fatigue). But let's try to best match a pace as an analogue to these lactate mmol levels, and let's pick a 15:00 5km athlete as an example. His or her Daniel's T pace is 5:14. The Tinman Threshold and CV pace ranges are 5:23 - 5:15 and 5:08 - 5:01. I *think* Pfitzinger would also have around a 5:15 LT pace (but I don't have his books in front of me).
Roughly what would we think the Norwegian training pace would be for this athlete compared to those training paces from other author's training plan. I'm having a hard time thinking of what effort and pace that may roughly equate to compared to other training efforts.
No clue if this helps but I test my athletes occasionally, and though it definitely varies I have found that the faster end of the Tinman "tempo" pace (faster end, even reaching into the space towards the "threshold" pace) typically ends up with them at the 2.5-3.5mmol range for efforts of 6-15 minutes.
So for a 16-minute 5k guy it's about 3:37-3:42/k (5:48-5:55/mile). For a 15-minute 5k guy it's 3:25-3:31/k (5:30-5:39/mile).
My sample size isn't huge, just my group so take with a pinch of salt, but until I get to testing folk I've been using the faster end of their "tinman" tempo for that sort of continuous tempo work (6+ minutes). I use the "cv" paces for 1-3 minute efforts.
it lets you get a lot of work in at a relatively fast pace without being hard on your body. I've only run a 15:30 5k, but I had only about 4 miles of fast (faster than threshold) running per week, not including races. Now I'm running 4x1600 at 5:50-6:00 and 10x800 at 2:55 and it allows me to become very, very efficient at 6 minute pace so it barely feels faster than jogging
The advantage to training at 2.5-3.5 mmol is that it trains your ability to clear lactate almost as well as higher intensities without accumulating as much lactate in the blood and muscles, so one can do more volume of work. Tinman’s CV workouts are closer to 5 mmol.
I appreciate the responses in this thread; not only this quoted one but all of them. Makes for great discussion.
I am going to ask a pragmatic question here: I know much of this is paced on actual, real-time blood testing to dial in the pace/effort. I get pacing-to-lactate levels will vary across not only athletes, but also within an individual athlete across various sessions/efforts/conditions (heat, accumulated fatigue). But let's try to best match a pace as an analogue to these lactate mmol levels, and let's pick a 15:00 5km athlete as an example. His or her Daniel's T pace is 5:14. The Tinman Threshold and CV pace ranges are 5:23 - 5:15 and 5:08 - 5:01. I *think* Pfitzinger would also have around a 5:15 LT pace (but I don't have his books in front of me).
Roughly what would we think the Norwegian training pace would be for this athlete compared to those training paces from other author's training plan. I'm having a hard time thinking of what effort and pace that may roughly equate to compared to other training efforts.
I think it would be easier just to tell you what pace JI runs for his workouts and then you can calculate your own paces from that.
His lab tested threshold is 21.5 km/h which is 2:47 per km. This is the one hour race pace. To find your own, consider what pace you could run for a one hour race. Then convert that to speed in km/h.
His program is:
Monday: 40 min easy + 40 min easy 15.5-17.0 km/h. This it threshold pace minus 4.5-6 km/h. They try to stay around 70% of max hr and do not exceed 75% of max hr.
Tuesday: AM 5x6 minutes with 1 min rest at 20.5 km/h (threshold pace minus 1 km/h). PM 20x400m with 30 seconds rest starting at 22.0, most run at 22.5, finishing at 23.0 km/h if feeling good (threshold plus 1 km/h).
Wednesday: same as Monday.
Thursday: AM same as Tuesday. PM: 10x3 minutes with 1 min rest (can be 8 if feeling bad or 12 if feeling great. Sometimes run as k repeats on the track) run at lab tested lactate threshold speed of 21.5 km/h or 2:47 per km.
Friday: same as Wednesday
Saturday: 2 sets of 10x200m run uphill at a grade of 5-8%. Jog back down. 3-5 min rest between sets. The first set is a lactate value of 6-8 mmol. The second set is 8 mmol and can get up to 10 or even 12 at the end. 10-12 mmol feels like a 5k race.
Sunday: 80 minutes easy
They also do weights and fast strides on Monday and Wednesday. This is a simple but effective program that Gjert Ingebrigtsen received from Marius Bakken and hasn’t really been changed since Marius created it in 2006
I appreciate the responses in this thread; not only this quoted one but all of them. Makes for great discussion.
I am going to ask a pragmatic question here: I know much of this is paced on actual, real-time blood testing to dial in the pace/effort. I get pacing-to-lactate levels will vary across not only athletes, but also within an individual athlete across various sessions/efforts/conditions (heat, accumulated fatigue). But let's try to best match a pace as an analogue to these lactate mmol levels, and let's pick a 15:00 5km athlete as an example. His or her Daniel's T pace is 5:14. The Tinman Threshold and CV pace ranges are 5:23 - 5:15 and 5:08 - 5:01. I *think* Pfitzinger would also have around a 5:15 LT pace (but I don't have his books in front of me).
Roughly what would we think the Norwegian training pace would be for this athlete compared to those training paces from other author's training plan. I'm having a hard time thinking of what effort and pace that may roughly equate to compared to other training efforts.
I think it would be easier just to tell you what pace JI runs for his workouts and then you can calculate your own paces from that.
His lab tested threshold is 21.5 km/h which is 2:47 per km. This is the one hour race pace. To find your own, consider what pace you could run for a one hour race. Then convert that to speed in km/h.
His program is:
Monday: 40 min easy + 40 min easy 15.5-17.0 km/h. This it threshold pace minus 4.5-6 km/h. They try to stay around 70% of max hr and do not exceed 75% of max hr.
Tuesday: AM 5x6 minutes with 1 min rest at 20.5 km/h (threshold pace minus 1 km/h). PM 20x400m with 30 seconds rest starting at 22.0, most run at 22.5, finishing at 23.0 km/h if feeling good (threshold plus 1 km/h).
Wednesday: same as Monday.
Thursday: AM same as Tuesday. PM: 10x3 minutes with 1 min rest (can be 8 if feeling bad or 12 if feeling great. Sometimes run as k repeats on the track) run at lab tested lactate threshold speed of 21.5 km/h or 2:47 per km.
Friday: same as Wednesday
Saturday: 2 sets of 10x200m run uphill at a grade of 5-8%. Jog back down. 3-5 min rest between sets. The first set is a lactate value of 6-8 mmol. The second set is 8 mmol and can get up to 10 or even 12 at the end. 10-12 mmol feels like a 5k race.
Sunday: 80 minutes easy
They also do weights and fast strides on Monday and Wednesday. This is a simple but effective program that Gjert Ingebrigtsen received from Marius Bakken and hasn’t really been changed since Marius created it in 2006
Interesting that there is no real "long run". Does anyone know why this is? Thx!
Interesting that there is no real "long run". Does anyone know why this is? Thx!
Because it doesn't offer any benefit over the 80mins they are running. They are training for 1500-5000m not marathons. Doing a less efficient long run instead of saving that energy for the quality aerobic workouts make no sense.
Now this is sort of debatable as there is some evidence that you get more aerobic enzymes from 90-150 min runs but it is far from established especially in people already doing 150+ km/week.
Hello, physiologist here. An important thing to understand is the definition of a threshold.
Any physical work above resting will produce some amount of lactate that will raise blood lactate levels. An easy run, for example, will indeed raise blood lactate a little bit. But as long as the athlete holds that pace, the lactate level should be stable.
As the workload increases, the lactate level will increase. And as long as the workload is below lactate threshold, the lactate should remain stable at a stable workload (running pace in this case). Once the workload is higher than the threshold, then even though the athlete may be able to sustain that workload for a while - including multiple longer intervals - the blood lactate will keep rising at that workload.
This threshold has often been assumed to be around 4 mmol/l blood lactate for pretty much everyone. Clearly, that is not the case, according to Bakken's writing. It seems that training effects on the CV, pulmonary, and muscular systems as well as training effects on the liver to clear lactate causes that threshold to occur in elite athletes at a blood lactate level that is lower than 4.0 mmol/l. It looks to be closer to ~3 mmol/l.
So, my take on this is that perhaps what many athletes call or think of as threshold pace may be actually too fast - leading to overtraining and injury. The Norwegian approach seems to be that respecting this lower blood lactate level as the true just-sub-threshold level allows one to train more at a high aerobic level without overtraining. And the results seem to be showing.
Thank you for that explanation, but I do not understand. It sounds like you’re saying that the lactate threshold for elite athletes is lower than it is for regular Joe’s? Is it that the pace you can run at that lactate level gets faster and faster? Is that where the training improvement comes? Thanks for your thoughts.
The advantage to training at 2.5-3.5 mmol is that it trains your ability to clear lactate almost as well as higher intensities without accumulating as much lactate in the blood and muscles, so one can do more volume of work. Tinman’s CV workouts are closer to 5 mmol.
I appreciate the responses in this thread; not only this quoted one but all of them. Makes for great discussion.
I am going to ask a pragmatic question here: I know much of this is paced on actual, real-time blood testing to dial in the pace/effort. I get pacing-to-lactate levels will vary across not only athletes, but also within an individual athlete across various sessions/efforts/conditions (heat, accumulated fatigue). But let's try to best match a pace as an analogue to these lactate mmol levels, and let's pick a 15:00 5km athlete as an example. His or her Daniel's T pace is 5:14. The Tinman Threshold and CV pace ranges are 5:23 - 5:15 and 5:08 - 5:01. I *think* Pfitzinger would also have around a 5:15 LT pace (but I don't have his books in front of me).
Roughly what would we think the Norwegian training pace would be for this athlete compared to those training paces from other author's training plan. I'm having a hard time thinking of what effort and pace that may roughly equate to compared to other training efforts.
I believe roughly 75 for 400s, 3:20 for 1000s, and 5:30 pace for the 6 minute reps would be the Norwegian training paces for a 15:00 runner. IIRC Jakob runs roughly 2:55-3:00 per K for the 6 minute reps, 2:50 for the 1000s, and 64 for the 400s. Those may be outdated though, that might have been what he ran when he was a 13:02 guy (I did the math based on a 5k pace of 61.5 per lap).
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