Masses not starting with elite men in NYC marathon for first time ever?

Agents and sponsors are responsible for this. Most likely, it was a condition to get Bekele to race (speculation, but couldn't imagine Jos Hermens letting Bekele run a marathon with the masses). They could not care less about tradition and just want to be sure that race conditions are 100% optimal for their athletes. They do not want some sub elite yahoo running with their athletes at any point in the race. That is what every other major marathon offers elite runners and NYC is in no position to push back.

The buffer I was referring to was a few meters separating the members of the championship division - not a time difference.

From watching a recent Seth DeMoor video, it seems like the sub-elites are starting before the runners affiliated with the police and fire department this year. I remember Seth's video from 2019, when he was all ready to go near the starting line and hundreds of much slower people were led out to start in front of him.

However. Seth said that he is still starting minutes after the elites, which doesn't make sense as the brojos point out.

I respectfully disagree with you as long as the runners are allowed to start together.

Road running has been basically the wild west when it comes to the rules of competition and it's enforcement. But an athlete (and their agent) who wanted to challenge some of these protocols would certainly have a case that could end up in court.

Plus, the reality is that most of the major road races around the world what to create a certain narrative and therefore carefully select the runners that they want in their elite division....and yes, exclude others.

I disagree. It's a bad idea. Sometimes you have really good runners who were not invited to the race but who could get into the prize money, if eligible. A race is fair if they all start at the same time--and in a marathon it doesn't matter much if you're right on the line or several seconds back at the start.

rojo wrote:

I've long argued you want one elite race ending when the other one is at halfway. For the tv product to be any good at all, it really needs to end certainly before the other race is at 30k. As it stands now, the elite women will be finshing when the men are in the 24th mile. The elite men will just be 11 minutes from the finish.

This frees up more time for the networks to focus on human interest stories.

rojo wrote:

I've long argued the elite men should start first as the men are faster and therefore the gap would be widening

Elite men cannot start before the elite women AND have the masses go out with them. Then the women would have to weave through the masses

rojo wrote:

8:00 a.m. Professional Wheelchair Division

8:22 a.m. Handcycle Category and Select Athletes with Disabilities

8:40 a.m. Professional Women’s Open Division

9:05 a.m. Professional Men’s Open Division

Can some disability expert please tell me why the elite women can't start 8:25 am?

I'm not a disability expert, but this is impossible for the NYC marathon specifically because the first mile is uphill. You could do this with a flat or rolling start, but I think the logistics would get pretty complicated even if the elite women didn't catch wheelchair athletes on the first uphill. (And remember, this is all of the wheelchair athletes, not just the elite ones. The 38th place wheelchair athlete in the 2019 marathon finished in 2:26 so I have to believe their first uphill mile was fairly slow-- and there were a decent number of wheelchair and disability athletes behind them.

To the larger point, I'm hoping this is a one-time COVID thing or something, because starting with the elite men is a pretty fun element of the NYC marathon, even for schmucks like me. However, it's worth asking if the "Professional men's open division" also includes all of the sub-elite running clubs in the NYC area that get a preferred start. If so, that would put a much larger group of stronger athletes on the start line and account for just about anyone who could sneak into the top 10/20 from outside the invited field.

D.Katz wrote:

Elite Division

It has happened at the NY marathon where an athlete not in the elite division has broken into the top 10. I am sure this is one of the main reasons why they decided to got with the separate start.

I see your point. But if this is true, how does having a separate elite start help the next person, who's "an athlete not in the elite division" break into the top 10? Wouldn't it make it even harder, since they're now put 5 minutes back?

It seems this is about helping the elites, which I'm fine with. They earned elite treatment. But I don't see how separating the elites from sub elites, helps a near-elite sub-elite "break into the top 10" any differently than before you had a separate elite start. Because the sub-elites aren't in it.

GettingFasterDude wrote:

D.Katz wrote:

Elite Division

It has happened at the NY marathon where an athlete not in the elite division has broken into the top 10. I am sure this is one of the main reasons why they decided to got with the separate start.

I see your point. But if this is true, how does having a separate elite start help the next person, who's "an athlete not in the elite division" break into the top 10? Wouldn't it make it even harder, since they're now put 5 minutes back?

It seems this is about helping the elites, which I'm fine with. They earned elite treatment. But I don't see how separating the elites from sub elites, helps a near-elite sub-elite "break into the top 10" any differently than before you had a separate elite start. Because the sub-elites aren't in it.

I'll help you here: there are elites and there are non-elites. There are no others. What's the impact of a non-elite never again breaking into the top 10? Nothing.

I bring a candle wrote:

rojo wrote:

Can some disability expert please tell me why the elite women can't start 8:25 am?

Good point.

How slow is the slowest wheelchair person?

Just speculating based on experience, but wheelchairs tend to be slowish on uphills and very much faster than runners on downhills. As such there's a good chance chairs would be overtaken by the elite women's group on climbs and could pose a potential safety hazard re-passing on downhills.

I don't know how big a deal this might be for a staggered start like NYCM, but it's why there is a staggered start.

@rojo: Not a disability expert, but I imagine the time difference between Handcycle/Disability start time and Women's Elite within your 8:25 am proposal would likely involve the uphill nature of the start.

Non-Elite wheelchairs/handcycles in particular probably need ample time to crest the Veranzano Bridge. If runner's can beat those folks to the crest, I foresee grumblings (or worse, accidents) once the descent begins.

I agree in the Men before Women start IF the elite fields have a separate start. In regards to Boston/NYC, I think we should forego the separate starts considering WR ineligibility (or improbability at NYC). As a former Sub-Elite at NYCM, it was a cool part of the experience to be technically in the mix. This being said, NYRR has cash prizes for categories outside the elite field, (perhaps there is a second purse for the mass start?

Chicago in particular need to return to a women's record-eligible format; but mirroring sentiments on the CHI Marathon/Adidas Thread, I think we should decertify them from WMM until the organizers stop turning it into a Nike TT and return some funding to the purse. There are far better marathons (Valencia, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, etc.) who have proved to be deserving of more professional attention.

zxvczcxv wrote:

I disagree. It's a bad idea. Sometimes you have really good runners who were not invited to the race but who could get into the prize money, if eligible. A race is fair if they all start at the same time--and in a marathon it doesn't matter much if you're right on the line or several seconds back at the start.

Girma Bekele Gebre, the third place male in 2019, did not have an elite number (it was 443) and he started with the sub-elites on the other side of the bridge.

Is it correct that a guy in his situation this year is starting several minutes back?

I'm starting w sub elites. Here's the info we have:

"2. Beginning at 5:15 AM on Sunday, November 7, a caravan of four buses will be parked on 54th Street between Fifth and Sixth Avenues. The buses will be numbered 1-4. Sub-elite men will take bus number 3, and sub-elite women will take bus number 4.

5. The buses will travel with a police escort in our special pro athlete caravan and arrive at the Ocean Breeze Athletic Complex on Staten Island at approximately 6:45 AM. When you leave your bus, staff will direct you to the right place. The facility is indoors and is heated. Water, Gatorade, hot beverages, and light snacks will be available. A mask or face covering will be required at all times inside the Ocean Breeze Athletic Complex."

Kind of just feels like this is an "Elite JV" race. I'm aiming for low-2:20s - say 2:22-2:24 - and think there are a couple other guys in that range. Actually excited to start at the front of the masses. Maybe try to be win the NYC "numbered bib" race. That said - it was awesome two years ago when one of the West Side Runners guys finished 3rd in 2:09 from the sub-elite.

5:15 bus for a 9 am start. That is quite a production.

I am glad I don't have to do this.

We also need to understand that the athletes in the elite division of a World Athletics Label Race (in the case of the NYCM it is a World Athletics Platinum Level) are all part of an out of competition testing pool.

D.Katz wrote:

The buffer I was referring to was a few meters separating the members of the championship division - not a time difference.

In that case I apologise, and agree with you. That would have been a sensible precaution whilst still allowing us local elites to join the main race!

Occam's razor would have me believe that this just settles an issue that pro athlete director Sam Grotewald has with WSX manager Bill Staab. The WSX team has many Ethiopian runners that clean up in the local NYRR prize money races. At the best of times (when WSX runners win the local prize races) Sam only dislikes Bill Staab, but the level of anger rises when one of Bill's athletes makes the podium of a flagship race. This happened in the two biggest NYRR races pre-pandemic. Bilay Tilihun won the UAE Half and Girma Bekele Gebre placed third in the NYC Marathon, neither started in the pro field. There was anger and embarrassment, and with the new start times it will not happen again. Take a look at the NYC podium video of Gebre being completely ignored and not even given a jacket to put on in the cold weather. This is my story and I'm sticking to it, and Wejo, you should reach out to Bill Staab for comment.

There is a huge disparity between who got accepted into the elite field and the elite field.

There is a guy who has a 2:13 PR in the Sub-elite field and yet, there are several guys who have run slower than 2:17 in the elite field. This would be fine if there were other guys to run with in the sub-elite field, but the reality is this guy and maybe one or two others will be running the entire race by themselves and will likely beat several of the elite fields. While they are unlikely to finish top 5 American, top 10 is reasonable....but they don't even get that chance because of the 5-minute delay.

Seems a bit flawed to me. How many other guys are in the sub-elite field with this situation I wonder?

**edit for poor grammar**

but, as someone in the sub-elite field - I'm frustrated that the start has changed.