High mileage for middle distance running experiment (finished)

I remember it being a theory that Coe simply didn't log his easy runs as training. I wanna say that Canova witnessed Coe training for XC and running 100mpw and that wasn't what he put in on paper leading people to believe that he ran more mileage than he claims and just didn't consider jogging to be training, lumping it in as recovery. Snell did very well with high mileage as did everyone Lydiard trained it seems and he never sought out good young athletes he just trained whoever was around and they all became good. I think as a blueprint higher mileage gets people the most consistent results. It's only the freaks that can run fast off of low mileage and because of it they usually suffer having to go through rounds.

high school xc coach wrote:

Come On Tokyo wrote:

He ran 3.43 off a 75MPW and a 40MPW two year period. It would be good to see how he goes off another 40MPW or two.

yes. even a guy like Coe would do 70ish in the winter and then spend many months around 40. It all works together.

or maybe not for some people. perhaps permanent 40 is the sweet spot for a few.

This was a common complaint from Lydiard when people thought his training wasn't working during winter. They would then go back to standard interval training, and BOOM! PBs! They would say this was changing back to a heavy interval system, but the reality is that the interval system was building on the bigger aerobic base they had.

I would also say that your son appears to have an exceptional amount of talent. If I've read correct, he ran 3:49 after 1 year of running and 3:43 after 3 years? If anything, this confirms he is an exception

ShilohDoesntCare wrote:

I remember it being a theory that Coe simply didn't log his easy runs as training. I wanna say that Canova witnessed Coe training for XC and running 100mpw and that wasn't what he put in on paper leading people to believe that he ran more mileage than he claims and just didn't consider jogging to be training, lumping it in as recovery. Snell did very well with high mileage as did everyone Lydiard trained it seems and he never sought out good young athletes he just trained whoever was around and they all became good. I think as a blueprint higher mileage gets people the most consistent results. It's only the freaks that can run fast off of low mileage and because of it they usually suffer having to go through rounds.

I agree with the fact that "freaks" often run well off low mileage. People then look at, eg, Brazier, and copy him. Unfortuntately, that doesn't work for everyone.

My theory is most elites have enough natural talent they don't need to put in as much work for the required aerobic fitness, so can instead focus more energy on the icing-on-the-cake stuff

ShilohDoesntCare wrote:

I remember it being a theory that Coe simply didn't log his easy runs as training. I wanna say that Canova witnessed Coe training for XC and running 100mpw and that wasn't what he put in on paper leading people to believe that he ran more mileage than he claims and just didn't consider jogging to be training, lumping it in as recovery. Snell did very well with high mileage as did everyone Lydiard trained it seems and he never sought out good young athletes he just trained whoever was around and they all became good. I think as a blueprint higher mileage gets people the most consistent results. It's only the freaks that can run fast off of low mileage and because of it they usually suffer having to go through rounds.

Snell had run a low 22s 200m(i.e. pretty fast for a md guy) and 153 800m. We are talking a very talent guy. That isnt to take away from Lydiard. Snell was likely to be a 146 guy under anycoach but that gap between that and a 3 time gold medal winner is huge.

of course the gap between 90-110mpw(snell training from his logs) and 150mpw is also huge.

I would tend to take down weeks every 5th- 6th week. These would be around 100-110mpw still.

The workouts are designed to be slightly below threshold (ideally I would train at exactly threshold, but to be on the safe side I go slightly below).

For example, for the 1kms, I might run 3:10 or so. If I feel good towards the end, I will drop down to close to 3 mins, but really not pushing any limits. I would guess my threshold pace on the old "pace you could hold for an hour" rule would be 3:05s or so. I would have 60 seconds recovery.

400s I would run around 70s to start, the last 10 or so around 68, so a little faster than threshold. However, lactate measures I don't think would be any higher than in the 400s. Recovery is normally 40 seconds.

I would every now and again have days when I just felt completely dead, and would slog through a run at 8-9 minute pace (no exaggeration). I found when I used to get in these holes, it could take me up to a week before I would bounce back, but after 4-5 5 week training blocks, I would be able to bounce back from these slumps within a day.

In terms of feeling the benefits - I would say the first 4-6 months I was probably adapting and learning to absorb the training. After that, I could then actually do the training and see the benefits. From being able to "absorb" the training load, I would say it was another 3 months to see the benefit. So all up, I think it was a 9-10 month process to see benefits of actually being fitter, if that makes sense.

Are you doing strides? I strongly believe they stopped me from feeling dead when trying to run fast. I like doing them on a very slight rise, purely because then I don't feel like I'm slamming my legs too much if it's after a 20 mile day.

somequestions wrote:

How fast do you run your mileage runs? Any full workout examples (including rest and times)? Also, how do you think you avoided injury on such high volume?

Last question that hasn't yet been answered on injury prevention:

Honestly, I think mostly just luck. But a few things that contributed to this "luck":

- I haven't been injured for 5 years or so and been running continuously running that whole time with very few days off, so my body was quite robust from that

- I do a lot of drills. I don't actively think about changing my form, but a few hours of drills every week makes for more efficient running

- I probably bailed on 3 runs in the last year at the sign of a slight niggle. I guess being in tune with your body to know if something isn't right, and mature enough to listen to it means you should avoid injury.

- No massage, stretching or foam rolling. I don't enjoy it, and can't find any evidence that suggests it's helpful.

Also, what event are you training for? Marathon or track stuff?

I’m currently prepping for 8k xc for college, I’m honestly not that fast yet, but in track I’ll also be doing 1500 - 10k. Those really long days were doubles btw, I did 9 in the morning one day and then 19 with a 5 mile tempo and then a 16, 8, 4, 2 cutdown (800 jogs) and then a few days later was 10 in the morning and 20 in the afternoon with 12x400 hard with 4-600 jog (I’m at altitude for the month, so was trying to stay in touch with speed/speed endurance similar to NAUs 1 on 1 off fartlek). I do hill 12 hill sprints the day before workouts and 4 strides before workouts and every other week I’ll alternate sets of 100s or 200s with equal jog recovery and a mile jog between sets also for speed/speed endurance instead of hill sprints the day before a workout.

Not broken wrote:

We always see threads about mega talented elites that can get by with high quality/low quantity mileage.

I thought it would be worth bringing up that high mileage can work for some people. ...

OP, thanks for putting the time and effort into this post, it's been the most interesting/informative thread in quite some time. Worthy of a full blown blog or article submission in my view.

To me the most unusual/gifted aspect of your experiment is the lack of injury, but i see you had to work at that as well with a lot of drills and self awareness, so not a complete gift.

Myself, and i sense others, want to know what happens if you cut back and start running higher intensity intervals and tempos. Response to sharpening and tapering phase are as mixed as base training, not sure what would be best for your phenotype. Good luck with your experiment, looking forward to more updates!

OP, your training actually seems to come decently close to the NAU Fall training program that was posted on here a couple of years ago. They also tend towards 110-120 mpw with hills, strides, and threshold being the majority of the "quality work" for almost the entire season.

Has anyone else found that they're a responder to high mileage for middle distance events? Would people be interested in starting a discussion specifically around high mileage training for 800/1500 specialists?

When did you start seeing diminishing returns in terms of miles? How many sessions per week? Extreme periodization for track season, or maintain volume all year round? Longest run?

There was a thread here a long time ago about big mileage and a guy who seemed to use two names, I think he was the same guy, who got on and described doing exactly what you're describing. It got him from something like 4:10, or thereabouts, in the mile, to 3:55. He posted as either "In Ithaca" or as "Nike Free Me." I went looking for the thread but can't find it. I think his mileage was around 130-140 a week but it's been a long time since that thread was alive.

Not broken:

Very interesting, but I wonder why this "experiment" was about 1500 m and not 5k/10k/HM?

Did not you check what was your improvement on longer (than 1.5k) distances?

wikid pissah wrote:

Look into Arthur Lydiard and Peter Snell (800 gold medal winner Olympics)

They thought Arthur was crazy training snell like a marathoner but he delivered in the Olympics final

Interesting, but recently we have had some brilliant marathoners come back down to 10 K and not do so well. Im cherry picking, but MoBot, Rupp, Sarah Hall... (some age in there too I know). All those miles and Threshold didnt transform their 10k.

The OP is a troll. He has caught many of you in his trap. Why do people want to know about 1 person's experience when we have data from thousands of runners and coaches over the past 50 years? I know it is because most of you are not talented so you desperately want to think that you too can make a huge improvement by ramping up your mileage. NCAA and world class milers do not do mileage anywhere near the level of this troll. It is garbage.

skyboy wrote:

OP, your training actually seems to come decently close to the NAU Fall training program that was posted on here a couple of years ago. They also tend towards 110-120 mpw with hills, strides, and threshold being the majority of the "quality work" for almost the entire season.

I do remember hearing something in that thread about "as much mileage as the individual can handle". The NAU crowd do seem biased towards cross country/10km though. I'd be interested to see what they would run for an 800 or 1500

I'm pretty sure this is the thread you're talking about. I believe In_Ithaca claimed it wasn't him, but the training very closely resembled that of John Kellogg's philosophy, which is what Bruce Hyde used (In_Ithaca, also a sub 4 miler). Leads me to question whether or not NIKE FREE ME was real or not, but Bruce Hyde certainly was (is?), so to the poster who said no pro/fast guys train like that, I know for a fact there is at least one (plus all the Africans who consistently log 200km/125mpw)

I would also like to know this! Sharing training ideas is all part of everyone's experiment to run as fast as possible. I would be interested to hear from any milers doing similar training loads on how they managed their peak each year.

I did cut back in summer - dropped the triples, and changed my workouts such as 30x400 to 15x400 so that I could run closer to race pace, but the training effect is still largely aerboic based. Perhaps a few real anaerobic sessions would be of benefit. Total mileage during track season was more like 120 for a few weeks.

OP - What do your strides look like (i.e. how long, what kind of recovery, at the end of a run after drills or mid run)?

Do you do strides after every run or just once per day? Is it every day, even during/after the 20 mile long run?

Do you do hills or hill sprints, and if so, what do these look like?

What are the drills that you are doing? How often per week?

I guess this is exactly the conversation I'm hoping to have. I highly doubt I'm the only person in the world that benefits from high mileage training for middle distance running. I would be interested to hear from people like him when they started to burn out and why they think they did, and how they broke up their mileage. If you do come across the thread, please post the link!