Who's to say Kate Grace wouldn't have already run a big PR this summer? She did switch coaches fairly recently but maybe the building blocks she put with Jerry's system set her up for this.
Who's to say Kate Grace wouldn't have already run a big PR this summer? She did switch coaches fairly recently but maybe the building blocks she put with Jerry's system set her up for this.
The OP wrote:
Who's to say Kate Grace wouldn't have already run a big PR this summer? She did switch coaches fairly recently but maybe the building blocks she put with Jerry's system set her up for this.
No, Jerry tried to turn her into a 1500 runner because he's lazy and doesn't know how to develop 800 runners. Bosshard is the real deal and has done great with Kate, she credits her recent success to him and Team Boss. Look at Kaela Edwards, she was doing great with Joe and has completely gone to sh!t since she left Kate is also clearly happier at Team Boss with more mature women, both physically and mentally. There was every indication that she would be running 1:57 from her recent workouts and she even said so in an interview that she was ready to do that. Happy for her but still gutted that she didn't make the team.
zxczcxv wrote:
Ben Thomas doesn't have the track record of Jerry Schumacher, not even close. He's off to a good start at Oregon. Jerry is basically a 3000m-10000m coach with great results at those distances and very little outside them. Some of his 3k-10k runners do well at the 1500m but not that well, basically a ceiling of 3:32.97 from Jager down to 3:38. Jerry's training is so volume heavy in workouts that it is not ideal for 800/1500m types. What was Alan Webb doing with a 120 mile week? You need to know your athletes and adjust to them. What he does works great for the 3k-10k, considering the countries he's dealing with, the U.S., UK, and Canada, basically. He helped Ahmed to 12:47, Solinsky to 12:55, Teg 12:58, Lopez 12:57?, Woody 12:58, Centro 13:00, Jager 13:02, and a bunch of other low 13 guys. Fisher will break 13 as well. Put him in charge of a top group in Addis and you'd see plenty of 12:40s.
If someone is on the strength side of 800 like Grace is, training for the 800 and 1500m are the same thing. Coe and Ovett won medals at both distances in the same Olympics and Peter Snell used to train up to 100 mpw.
Unfortunately there is a cloud of doubt on his program and all of those low/sub 13's appear to be a product of talented athletes, solid coaching, and perhaps some PEDs. I believe Jerry did the whole thyroid medicine thing for his athletes. Now with Shelby it makes me think others in that group are involved with PEDs. Jerry might be unaware of this but the improvements of some of his athletes line up with PED use that we have seen elsewhere. I am not out to trash his reputation but I am not about to believe everything he says. I just think that his team/BTC has uber talent, unlimited resources, a few (maybe even Marc Scott) that tested positive for PEDs. The whole professional running community has a PED problem and that problem is even more than just a rumor when one of your athletes tests positive. The other thing is that the shoes have an impact on the current fast runners. Maybe 5-10 seconds for 5k. His athlete performances from the last 2 seasons need to be calibrated due to the shoes.
Lets say that I am Grant Fisher and I am clean. I would be pissed off at my teammate(s) and coaches who now lead others to believe I may be using PEDs.
Counterpoint is the Muir-Reekie group that trains lower mileage (50-60mpw). I don’t know where Team Boss falls on this. If you wanted to hammer Jerry it seems anecdotally like his workouts are really long and strength-oriented. There’re plenty of 800 runners who that is not the best approach for.
This post was removed.
This post was removed.
No, he just gets a ton of super talented athletes and the ones he doesn't overtrain run well, the others don't pretty simple. Like I said before, there are a 100 HS coaches who would get the same results with the athletes he is given, some might even do better.
Nonsense! wrote:
The OP wrote:
Who's to say Kate Grace wouldn't have already run a big PR this summer? She did switch coaches fairly recently but maybe the building blocks she put with Jerry's system set her up for this.
No, Jerry tried to turn her into a 1500 runner because he's lazy and doesn't know how to develop 800 runners. Bosshard is the real deal and has done great with Kate, she credits her recent success to him and Team Boss. Look at Kaela Edwards, she was doing great with Joe and has completely gone to sh!t since she left Kate is also clearly happier at Team Boss with more mature women, both physically and mentally. There was every indication that she would be running 1:57 from her recent workouts and she even said so in an interview that she was ready to do that. Happy for her but still gutted that she didn't make the team.
Am I the only one who noticed she was like 7th at the USA Trials? That may be her worst finish in 10 years. Let’s cool the jets on how great Team Boss is.
scrambled eggs wrote:
Obviously 5k-10k Jerry is one of the best coaches in the world. He’s even had some superb 1500 runners. But why did Kate have poor results for 5 years. Then after 6 months with a new coach runs a 1.5 second PR for a diamond league win. Then comes back several days later and PRs again.
Does Bowerman just have a system and if you don’t fit into that style of training your SOL?
Jerry is stubborn and all workouts are based on his teacher AlSal . Now Jerry uses a brad hudson book that has workouts for runners in it.
ghost of K Edwards wrote:[/b}
Am I the only one who noticed she was like 7th at the USA Trials? That may be her worst finish in 10 years. Let’s cool the jets on how great Team Boss is.
No, you are not the only one.
In her two US outdoor championships in 2018 & 2019 while w/BTC, Grace finished 3rd & 5th, respectively, in the 1500. In late summer 2019 she ran her 4:02 pr for a win at the US-Europe dual.
Now, w/Team Boss, she finishes 7th in the Trials 800 finals due to tying up w/120m to go after racing two fast prelims.
These new prs have come in time trial races following plenty of post-Trials rest.
A quick look at Grace's Wikipedia page or World Athletics profile shows that she has run a ton of 1500s/miles over the years so has never been averse to racing distances above the half. She even ran a couple of road 5ks back in 2015 & 2016 (well before BTC).
All these results indicate Kate is in the best shape of her life to run an all-out 800 -- but at the expense of endurance strength she would need to run rounds in championship meets. Strength she had when she was w/BTC.
It's too bad because Kate is between a rock and a hard place -- stay w/800 and have to run 3 rounds at USA championships against the deepest field of 800 runners the US has ever had, or move back to the 1500 and have to run either 2 or (Olympic Trials) 3 rounds against the deepest field of 1500 runners the US has ever had.
High hopes wrote:
scrambled eggs wrote:
Obviously 5k-10k Jerry is one of the best coaches in the world. He’s even had some superb 1500 runners. But why did Kate have poor results for 5 years. Then after 6 months with a new coach runs a 1.5 second PR for a diamond league win. Then comes back several days later and PRs again.
Does Bowerman just have a system and if you don’t fit into that style of training your SOL?
What? By what measure is he one of the best 5-10k coaches in the world? How many global 5/10k medallists has he coached in his career? How many global champions? Shalane Flanagan, and ...?
I'm sure he's a good coach, but the best in the world get results on the global stage
Flanagan earned the bronze medal in 08.OG with the John Cook group, 31:22.22 AR; then moved to Portland with the brand new BTC team.
Jzs wrote:
High hopes wrote:
What? By what measure is he one of the best 5-10k coaches in the world? How many global 5/10k medallists has he coached in his career? How many global champions? Shalane Flanagan, and ...?
I'm sure he's a good coach, but the best in the world get results on the global stage
Flanagan earned the bronze medal in 08.OG with the John Cook group, 31:22.22 AR; then moved to Portland with the brand new BTC team.
My mistake. So, I'm counting Infeld and Ahmed as his global 5/10 medalists. Two medals from 8 global champs since he took over BTC
C’mon, anyone that has trained seriously for the 800 knows that the grindy, volume and threshold based workouts of BTC destroy the speed necessary to run a good 800. A prior poster mentioned Coe. His training couldn’t haven been more different than the BTC model.
Schumacher has had zero success with 800/1500 runners like Grace. Everybody on the team is a long distance track runner and trains like one with less mileage for the middle distance types. It didn't work with Grace and Sinclaire Johnson, another 800/1500 type, has had a miserable season.
They need to reevaluate the “ closed camp” time trial races . Anyone who counts these for PRs is nuts🥜
Those BTC time trials should be fast practices ,that’s all.
Kate is old, she will be 33 soon, I feel her pain, getting older you just lose energy and muscle mass. Also, she is white. I don't see white girls being competitive in the 800 again.
Everyone laughed when Coburn left Wetmore to be coached by Joe. Now he's thought of as one of the best professional coaches in the country and he's young so he'll be around for decades. I'm pulling for that team honestly.
This is an incorrect assessment.
She had years of success, HS, college, early pro years, then promptly struggled when she was overworked.
Figuring out what not to do could've finished her off but fighting back through that adversity strengthened her identity as an athlete and got her back to the sort of training she thrives from and enjoys.
Basically, much over 45-50/week she goes backwards.
And there was never much reason to move to the 1500 anyway.
And when or if she does go there again , it will be off quality-based, varied paced 800 training.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
zxczcxv wrote:
Ben Thomas doesn't have the track record of Jerry Schumacher, not even close. He's off to a good start at Oregon. Jerry is basically a 3000m-10000m coach with great results at those distances and very little outside them. Some of his 3k-10k runners do well at the 1500m but not that well, basically a ceiling of 3:32.97 from Jager down to 3:38. Jerry's training is so volume heavy in workouts that it is not ideal for 800/1500m types. What was Alan Webb doing with a 120 mile week? You need to know your athletes and adjust to them. What he does works great for the 3k-10k, considering the countries he's dealing with, the U.S., UK, and Canada, basically. He helped Ahmed to 12:47, Solinsky to 12:55, Teg 12:58, Lopez 12:57?, Woody 12:58, Centro 13:00, Jager 13:02, and a bunch of other low 13 guys. Fisher will break 13 as well. Put him in charge of a top group in Addis and you'd see plenty of 12:40s.
If someone is on the strength side of 800 like Grace is, training for the 800 and 1500m are the same thing. Coe and Ovett won medals at both distances in the same Olympics and Peter Snell used to train up to 100 mpw.
I have to disagree with your assessment of Kate Grace's training, especially as you tie it into Coe, Ovett and Snell.
Men & women whom are equally talented in 800m & 1500m are rare. For the rare athlete whom are equally talented in 800m & 1500m, multiply 800m P.B. x 2.04 If 1500m is far off from that figure, athletes are not equally talented in 800m & 1500m.
As much as Snell banged his head against the cement wall attempting make himself equally talented in 800m & 1500m, Snell was not equally talented. Snell, despite his high mileage was an 800m specialist who happened to race well versus his competitors in 1500m. As much as Kate Grace banged her head against cement wall, Grace's 1:57.xx 800m is clearly superior to her 4:02.xx 1500m. Not all male 800m specialists are 44.xx or 45.xx 400m men; not all female 800m specialists are (47.xx to 51.xx) 400m athletes.
In U.S., post Peter Snell, for some reason white sub-2:20 800m (13 to 15) year old females get channeled toward 800m-1600m (previously 880yds & one mile) ; white male sub-2:05 800m (13 to 15) year olds often get channeled toward 800m -1600m (previously 880yds. & one mile). This occurs even when 1600m or then one mile talent does not or did not match 800m & 880 yard talent. Think about all the posts we read on here: I'm a sub-2:05 800m runner. Help me break 4:45 for 1600m.