Testosterone is a hell of a drug: KESSLER and the DSDS

Just reported this thread -- mods please change subject line.

Right now the first thing I see on the homepage appears like an allegation of Kessler and steroid use

distancerunningwizard wrote:

One of the things that makes Kessler special is his rock climbing ability. It gives him extra strength and also helps him to figure out things in racing

No, it doesn't. Like other outstanding middle distance runners, he has excellent top-end speed, stride efficiency and aerobic strength. Rock climbing has nothing to do with his success.

Dwightarm wrote:

An intersex XY woman produces about 2-3x the amount as an XX woman.

The comparison is not even close.

Incorrect. The limit imposed for DSD athletes is about 3x the high end of xx women. The normal "untreated" level of an average DSD woman is a few times higher than that limit, so about 10x a normal woman.

You're not completely wrong though. An average DSD woman is on the low end of normal for a male, so an average man is still higher than an average DSD woman. But I wouldn't say "the comparison is not even close." It is a reasonable comparison, but DSD woman don't have the full advantage an average man has.

youth.in.revolt wrote:

Just reported this thread -- mods please change subject line.

Right now the first thing I see on the homepage appears like an allegation of Kessler and steroid use

Not to mention that T is not the only reason Hobbs got bigger and faster.

Increase in growth hormone and IGF will also add muscle mass, reduce body fat and help with recovery.

positive k wrote:

e h wrote:

Warhurst is friends with Kesslers dad, a local HS coach in Ann Arbor, and attended one of Hobbs workouts and saw something special

I didn't realize Kessler had been working with Warhurst so early. I thought that only developed his senior year of HS.

Man, what an aligning of the stars. You can tell Warhurst is having a ball with this retirement project! That setup they have going with the phenom (Kessler), the prime years Olympian (Ferlic), and the career twilight all-time great (Willis), all under the watchful eye of the wise old Coach is damn special.

Fun to watch, and also makes me jealous I didn't have such a great college coach--you can tell Ron cares

+1

Bro…wtf are you talking about?

Please google: this At what age does male testosterone peak?

malmo wrote:

mise en scene wrote:

Next generation Salazar & Rupp

Not ever.

Thanks Malmo, for a little sanity.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

distancerunningwizard wrote:

One of the things that makes Kessler special is his rock climbing ability. It gives him extra strength and also helps him to figure out things in racing

No, it doesn't. Like other outstanding middle distance runners, he has excellent top-end speed, stride efficiency and aerobic strength. Rock climbing has nothing to do with his success.

You are almost certainly wrong.

positive k wrote:

e h wrote:

Warhurst is friends with Kesslers dad, a local HS coach in Ann Arbor, and attended one of Hobbs workouts and saw something special

I didn't realize Kessler had been working with Warhurst so early. I thought that only developed his senior year of HS.

Man, what an aligning of the stars. You can tell Warhurst is having a ball with this retirement project! That setup they have going with the phenom (Kessler), the prime years Olympian (Ferlic), and the career twilight all-time great (Willis), all under the watchful eye of the wise old Coach is damn special.

Fun to watch, and also makes me jealous I didn't have such a great college coach--you can tell Ron cares

Anyone else think of the other obvious takeaway from this?

Why did Webb leave this guy?

It may be when you’re young but when you actually need to take it when your an adult it doesn’t do much lol

As a runner of 50 years and a climber of 45 (up to 5.14a), the beauty of climbing as part of a lifestyle is how LITTLE my climbing interferes with my running training, as they utilize entirely different systems, so overtraining for me, despite being equally passionate about both, is minimized. It is more of a time-management challenge. Having superior upper body strength *might* make me a second or two faster in the finish of a race, but that is not worth the many hours of time I spend on the rocks and in the gym for climbing. Handling the stress of racing has overlap with pushing my limits on the rock, but again, many other sports or cross-training could accomplish this more efficiently.

If anything, running has helped my climbing more in terms of pain tolerance and structuring my training. I was one of the first to climb 5.13 (1992) in my state thanks to adapting Lydiardesque base-building and peaking principles in my training while others were looking for shortcuts or had no cohesive plan.

Gotta love Warhurst "Ok swing back here more, ok now pump them fast as hell, go, gooo!! Run!!

Dwightarm wrote:

track is awesome wrote:

2. This is exhibit A in light of the recent DSD and trans issues flaring up again. Male hormones make a HUGE difference in running performance.

This is a false equivalency though, comparing a boy in puberty to intersex women.

Boys going through puberty have huge, HUGE amounts of testosterone being produced. Even when they’ve finished puberty, fully grown men release on average 10x the amount of testosterone that a woman with ovaries produces.

An intersex XY woman produces about 2-3x the amount as an XX woman.

The comparison is not even close.

This is a false retort.

You didn't address the trans part, only the intersex part.

Why did you skip the trans part?

Is it because it doesn't conform to your belief that the comparison is wrong, and that this isn't actually an issue?

I don't think it was a reading comprehension issue. I think you purposefully chose not to address the other part of the argument. Because, aside from all the benefits of a lifetime of testosterone, it is a clear aid in performance.

Even intersex women, with a 2-3x production of testosterone, can put them above the regulation limit for the testosterone limits of their XX female peers.

This obviously has to be downregulated for trans athletes if not already on hormone therapy, but do intersex women/men have to downregulate their hormones as well? Or is their level simply just accepted?

Good job dodging half the equation in the argument, though. It's a good way to arrive at an accurate, proper answer to a problem.

Q for you- looking at it the other way, how much (if any) of an advantage does the endurance work Kessler or you do in running help you over your fellow rock climbers?

justastupido wrote:

The cognitive dissonance on this male vs female issue is overwhelming. The entire reason there is a men’s division and a women’s division in practically every sport is because this fact is beyond obvious. If it wasn’t so obvious, we wouldn’t have a men’s and women’s division in the first place m.

Biological men have the right to complete in biological men’s sports. Not women’s. Because they have a huge advantage over biological women. We all know it. End.

If you're feeling overwhelmed, quit posting for a while you hateful little person.

stevemcphadden wrote:

Q for you- looking at it the other way, how much (if any) of an advantage does the endurance work Kessler or you do in running help you over your fellow rock climbers?

Well, for one thing, Kessler was a top climber BEFORE he ran seriously, so no advantage there. I feel like running helps my overall pain/effort tolerance, but many other sports can do that also. There is very little specific endurance or strength carryover (the number one strength requirement for climbing is finger strength which is useless for running).

The one thing that carried over for me specifically was that by the time I started training seriously for climbing I had had my first running career ruined by injury, and staying healthy as a climber was priority #1. At that I have pretty much an unmatched career as a climber (5.13 continuously since 1992 with zero injuries that have interrupted training).

Does it not strike as strange to anyone that the whole reason that these DSD athletes did not develop phenotypical male bodies is because they are insensitive to testosterone?

I.e. the level of testosterone in their blood is not really a good way to measure if they have an unfair advantage or not?