Will high school kids skip school teams to run club?

No, not gonna see high school kids skipping HS track, possible exceptions in some major metro areas.

Where would a club find a facility?

Coaches rule their facilities like personal fiefdoms, and if it's not the coach, then the facility manager hates the idea of anything out of the ordinary that creates scary scary liability (even when you come with appropriate insurance).

Swimming is different as facility managers are keenly motivated to keep their expensive and hungry asset (the pool) in service as many hours as they can.

Soccer and lacrosse, just need a field. Not that expensive to bring in lines, flags, goals if you need to

pinesol II wrote:

No, not gonna see high school kids skipping HS track, possible exceptions in some major metro areas.

Where would a club find a facility?

Coaches rule their facilities like personal fiefdoms, and if it's not the coach, then the facility manager hates the idea of anything out of the ordinary that creates scary scary liability (even when you come with appropriate insurance).

Swimming is different as facility managers are keenly motivated to keep their expensive and hungry asset (the pool) in service as many hours as they can.

Soccer and lacrosse, just need a field. Not that expensive to bring in lines, flags, goals if you need to

Correct, mostly.

The best track competition and training opportunities are in the HS system for almost everyone.

And yes swimming is different because schools don't usually have pools. They need kids to train with their clubs. Pool time is expensive and a kid just on a HS team and not a club team is unlikely to be competitive. HS swim coaches are usually just meet organizers for the HS (and also often club coaches).

I could see this. A lot of high school coaches have no clue. Plus kids can play soccer and still run track without having to double up.

Given the scarcity of pools you'd think kids would join school teams if the school has a pool- no reason to travel or find pool time. The HS swim coaches I knew were great coaches. However since the swimmers generally start at a younger age many continued swimming for clubs.

coach wrote:

800 critic wrote:

Correct, mostly.

The best track competition and training opportunities are in the HS system for almost everyone.

And yes swimming is different because schools don't usually have pools. They need kids to train with their clubs. Pool time is expensive and a kid just on a HS team and not a club team is unlikely to be competitive. HS swim coaches are usually just meet organizers for the HS (and also often club coaches).

Given the scarcity of pools you'd think kids would join school teams if the school has a pool- no reason to travel or find pool time. The HS swim coaches I knew were great coaches. However since the swimmers generally start at a younger age many continued swimming for clubs.

If the US had public track then kids would pick club over HS. The High School cross country and track schedule is ridicules.

in the club wrote:

Is this going to start being a trend for the top kids? With private coaching becoming more popular and traveling across the US for meets, I could see many top kids just skipping high school track and cross country. I heard an interview with one of the Newbury Park runners they are going to Music City instead of running their State meet.

I have been private coaching in Australia for the past 13 years. I currently make 20k per year on top of my teaching salary and see athletes 4x per week. It is the best way forward and have had athletes represent Australia and earn scholarships to the US. From 10 year olds to 50'ish. It is a great opportunity for those that dream big.

Clubs cost money. HS sports generally don’t.

Already happening in states on east coast . been working with milers whose school had literally no indoor or outdoor. by not havin g to run worthless league meets or 4 team invitationals they were able to concentrate on train ing, In our group we have 5 jrs, 3 srs and 8 sophs who are all at or below 420. we are signing more athletes for next year.

This and a few posts above drive home the point that several of the "no's" have been making. There are a small number of exceptional athletes who will do exceptional things. 4:20 mile is exceptional, even if in the grand scheme a 4:20 miler is going nowhere with running as a profession. Mile training you can do on a bare field, do not need any specialized facility. Strength and mobility work you might want some equipment and it is standard stuff you can find in any gym at the level of Retro Fitness.

landsofnolakes wrote:

Already happening in states on east coast . been working with milers whose school had literally no indoor or outdoor. by not havin g to run worthless league meets or 4 team invitationals they were able to concentrate on train ing, In our group we have 5 jrs, 3 srs and 8 sophs who are all at or below 420. we are signing more athletes for next year.

joed|rt wrote:

I could see this. A lot of high school coaches have no clue. Plus kids can play soccer and still run track without having to double up.

How do you know that a lot of HS coaches have no clue? Have you interviewed thousands of kids?

It's easy to find training methods on-line and a possibly inexperienced coach can ask coaches at other schools for advice. Why do you believe new coaches would just wing it?

Even if a high school program isn’t great, HS running is a lot of fun. If I were graduating HS now, I would run for a club and not a D1–3 school, however.

Vanillanova wrote:

zaaa wrote:

i find it confusing that this hasnt already become the norm. look at how chaotic the basic high school cross country season is. there are way better ways to organize a season. it is very common for fast swimmers to avoid high school swimming and just train and compete with their clubs.

Does anyone on here have any background/experience with youth swimming? (I do not.)

My sense is that the kids start way, way earlier than running (maybe even Pre-K) and the eventual national caliber athletes have moved from local swim club to better and better regional clubs by Middle School.

I think it is a lot harder to identify top running talent at an early age.

I have experience writing checks for club sports as a dad. One daughter was a club swimmer. Other daughter club T&F athlete.

I don't think talent it is easier to recognize swimming talent compared to running talent. Swimmers show their skill at a young age by how well one is able to swim 50 yard or 50 metre freestyle. Running, one shows talent at an early age sprinting (50 to 200) metres. The worse one sprints the more likely to move up in distance, choose a throwing field event or quit T&F. Most elite Marathoners are sub-55 400m guys. By 10 years old, I can spot a potential sub-55 400m person. Note: Steve Hoag told me (15 to 20) years ago, he was a 55 second 440 yard guy on dirt. I guess that kind of time is normal for elite Marathoners.

There are so many good T&F athletes who never participated in club T&F. If U.S. schools decide they no longer want to fund XC and/or T&F then club T&F will be the norm.

Dildo wrote:

I suppose that the ones with wealthy parents and/or foolish parents might skip school teams to run club. C'est la vie.

Or, parents who never participated in school-sanctioned sports themselves. My parents and my peers' parents didn't see running without the knowledge of the school as an alternative. Our training and racing wasn't some strange work-around.

It was simply kids passionately pursuing a sport. Most of you posting ran for your school's track team. If that's your starting point, it requires a change in perspective to encourage your kids to go another route. But if you didn't do it yourself, you might not think as highly of the school system.

Imagine you grew up in a time and place without school sports teams, or weren't very aware of them because you and your friends didn't participate, or are just somehow not thinking that the school has a monopoly on sports participation. Perhaps you were from a poor, rural area and you own parents would have discouraged school team sports even if they did exist in your district. 40 years later, your kid runs road races. In this case you may not object nor freak out about the school and district's lack of input into the teen's running. It would seem normal if your own experiences didn't suggest otherwise.

The scenario I outlined (parents who weren't very school-sports-oriented) must have been somewhat common in the '40s and '50s because in the '70s and '80s road races were loaded with teenagers. Simply finishing didn't win your age group. It might have taken a 34 flat 10k or 2:46 marathon to win M 17-and-under at a small local race. A bigger regional race that was very well-known and brought out the talent could be much faster. A 33-mid didn't get me on the age-group podium. The low 2:50s didn't even get close (from my own mildly disappointing experience!) I'm not saying we were all record breakers, but just a bunch of kids into running who trained on our own. I am saying that a lot of kids did this and the fact that we weren't on the school track team didn't seem to be a problem.

The change to club for track won't happen until their are more competitive opportunities for everyone locally. Soccer in my area is now better in club then it is in High School sports. It didn't used to be that way but they got it done.

Locally for us the USATF system and AAU opportunities suck and they are even worse for High School aged athletes during the HS seasons. There are rules for us against doing both HS and club at the same time (they waived it this year) so that would prevent any HS athletes from doing club until their seasons are over.

My oh my wrote:

The change to club for track won't happen until their are more competitive opportunities for everyone locally. Soccer in my area is now better in club then it is in High School sports. It didn't used to be that way but they got it done.

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Its also a question of track and gear. Who, other than HSs are going to build tracks and buy 5-10 thousand dollar jumping pits and throwing cages and hurdles and everything else?

Some county or park system might have *a* track but they don't have a track to accommodate every club.

I'm not a soccer guy so I don't understand fully but what is the end game for the average (not the top 5%) club player? Once he/she is 18 and in college and just living a normal life, I bet they would rather have played for their school.

And for the community, nobody hears, cares, or notices if FC Club1 defeats FC Club2 in a match. People do notice when the 2 local HS teams battle.

Also, in public schools, sports are generally free. Club sports are not. That has to have a significant impact.

Also it's not uncommon for a high schooler to make the Olympic swim team...And be a world record holder...It makes sense for them to skip high school training which would limit their training hours....

The premise is will kids quit/skip a high school team to run club. I am going to assume you mean quit/skip a public school (which should be more correctly called a government school, for that is what it is).

The answer is yes and no. And I can't cover all the reasons, but here are a few I think will suffice.

Yes, if the athlete realizes that the school team/calendar/coach aren't quite up to par to help him/her get to the next level (maybe earn scholarship, be a champion level athlete, etc.) Yes, if he/she realizes that the local public school system offers no real support to their individual goals. Yes, if his/her parents have the money and can make the sacrifices to join a really good club/elite type environment suited to helping them get to their goals. So, 'yes', if the athlete is more of a type-A personality who wants the competition, understands that to be fast you have to mix it up with people faster, realizes they have to take the initiative to craft their own 'running' destiny. Yes, if he/she is capable at an early age of having a more long-term vision of running and where it might take them, or at the least help make him/her into a better person (the discipline gained from buckling down and working at something for several years can translate into other areas of life). Yes, because the point no one makes in these types of posts is that public schools are epically failing kids in America...they were never designed to produce functional, independent thinking, disciplined citizens...they were designed as a job welfare program to produce factory/industry workers who had basic reading/math skills to work in the factories/businesses of corporate America and make enough money to buy the products that they themselves made...I know...sounds conspiratorial, but anyone who is willing to go down the rabbit hole will realize that most of the big money that was dropped into getting compulsory 'education' in American starting in the late 19th century (and where it came from) will realize they )(people involved: politicians/corporatists/bankers) were basically trying to make a permanent dependent serfdom out of America. And that carries beyond the classrooms onto the athletic fields as well. But public/government schools are dying (they never realized how technology would so quickly replace/outdate them). So a lot of states are offering 'choice' and 'vouchers' (tax credits basically) to give parents/families options...and the more those are offered you will see more and more kids exiting public/government schools...so keep that in mind as an answer to your question. More kids exit, then there are less kids to do sports in that area. Basic demographic shift.

No, if the athlete can't think outside of the public school system or isn't exposed to a better culture/environment/context that illuminates that the school team isn't really all that good (or has those 'bad' coaches that don't care, don't know how to develop, etc.). No, if they are more of a social athlete, a human being that enjoys the company/fellowship of a team environment. No, if they are an athlete that would rather be a big fish in a small local pond. No, if running (or any sport) is less important that academics, building a 'resume', etc. No, for a lot of young people because they become more aware of the opposite sex/gender and lose all interest in sports. No, if the high school team/coach/culture is decent enough for them that they can supplement on their own to add to training. they might not be getting.

These aren't all the reasons, maybe not even the 'big' ones, but they'll do for now. As a disclaimer, I have never coached at a government school or a club system.

Will distance kids, predominantly white, be running unattached, upon hiring professional coaches and traveling nation wide so that their parents can spend thousands of dollars with the hope of partial scholarships and the badge of honor of saying their “son/daughter is a D1 athlete”? Sounds about right.

I will not repost 'been there done that' just due to length and this post being close enough on the page, but good points were made. I don't get why a bunch of posters by now haven't pointed out the social aspects of school teams and why they are so attractive to some kids. It's true what other posts have suggested that club soccer, while probably a more direct path to semi-pro than the school's program, is not noticed in the same way as our school vs. neighboring school by the masses.

I remember describing what I did in HS to someone a few years ago. They noticed that I ran and it came up. When facing the realization that the school wasn't in on it, they were sort of shocked and suggested that the races didn't really count toward anything. Like, they were meaningless to the other kids in the neighborhood, various parents, etc. It's true, your friends from church's parents won't know if you just picked up an age-group win last Saturday. Your results were certainly meaningless to the school itself: they didn't even know about the race. You were never going to be given awards at a pep rally.

Regardless of the truth of all that, I still am not convinced that the most efficient way to a pro career is via the team the school sponsors and the coach they hire. It's just that the pro career is not the main reason kids do it. This point was made well just above and hinted at earlier. How many middle agers point out that their best friends were the teams? Or team, singular, in situations where track and XC is all just a single year-round program. In that case, you have a gang all summer even.

My friends ran and were in my training group. If I was just some weird loner, I may have understood and appreciated the feeling of belonging that can come from school sports. That wasn't how it was for me, but if you were the strange one who didn't do what everyone else does, I could see an argument for the team idea. I mean, joining up is better than regularly getting beaten up!