elvid33 wrote:
Hobbyjoggers aren’t running 27-minute 5k’s.
Most of the people at races like the one described are walkers and people who have a friend or family member that dragged them to the starting line against their will who haven’t run at all in the past.
heavily disagree
nyc running clubs are chock full of people who would barely crack 30 in the 5k and identify as runners
For hobbyjoggers there just isn't the spread of times that would allow them to enjoy it. Also, I think they don't want to be in a race with just eight people. I know people are saying there's sometimes more than that but at a max it's about 12 or so, absolute maximum, as opposed to say 500-1000 in a parkrun. A hobbyjogger woman might be aiming for 3-4 minutes as well.
Yes - I had a quick look and the average time at the parkrun I looked at was 29 mins.
I might be this threads huckleberry?
I'm on the wrong side of 40, am an adult onset "runner", and although I flirted with a middle school mile of non-notability [5:25 ish made me one of the faster blokes in my middle school], my talents were elsewhere [pool], and nobody cares so enough about that.
in my 40s I started running a little and put up times that nobody cares about [1:40 half, 20:12 5k, mile 40+ PR 5:52], and I took the sadness here to a couple all-comer meets and got embarassed a little.
Eg when I was just barely on the wrong side of a 6 minute mile in one race, I was consciously moving over to lane 2 on the last turn because I wasn't sure I wouldnt be lapped [anyone going at/about 4:30 is going to lap a 6 flat-er]. Just avoided that by like 50m. Yay me!
Then in the 400m I had sad all-out results like 70.n seconds, I didnt dare enter the 800 because that race sucks. And I didnt enter the 3000 [they reserved the 5000 for end of season nobody got time for that] because I didnt want to be lapped that many times.
I also entered the 200 and the javelin. You laugh but I was better than most people at the javelin [I can still throw a mid 80s fastball which sucks but apparently is good for throwers]. The 200 was the most embarassing result for me as I got to witness some actual speed out there as I trot in around 29 lol.
So why dont people go to track meets? I think because track meets perform precisely zero marketing, plus people hate getting lapped. It seems like more actually fast people are there. I've snuck on a road podium for my age group a couple times without breaking 20, but at the all-comer track meet I'm arguably the slowest person out there not over 60. I guess its the shaming factor of being so far out of the performance standard you stop going. I stopped going. heh
1) hobby joggers are older folks
2) a high school crowd isn't exactly where you want to be when you are older.
Think of a 40 year old guy standing 4 feet apart from a 17 year old. He might freak out.
there are no track meets. In the DC area even as a 4:30miler you have at most 2 meets you can enter all year. I once did an indoor 5K as a 33 year old dude running against college sophs and frosh. Ran 15:26 in the middle of the pack. I felt way out of place and in order to get into the race I had to know the right people to ask the coach if I could hop in and said ok.
Other than maybe 2-3 local college meets you used to be able to enter before COVID, you have 1-2 summer track miles (maybe) and that's it.
A 5k on the track will never be able to compete with the experience of running a 5k on the road, for all the reasons described above.
If there is any hope to get more people involved in "hobby track meets", it would first require the popularization of shorter events for the hobby runner crowd, where the track experience outweigh the road running opportunity. I'd think a person looking to run a 400 or less (plus beer mile) would prefer to do it in a track meet setting rather than a road race setting, despite all the negatives described in previous posts. So if the 100-400 were something people would strive to train for and compete in rather than longer events, then you'd see hobby track meets.
So how do we make the 100m-400m more popular? 2 things must happen - 1) drive interest away from the longer distances 5k and up to participation in the shorter evens (plus beer mile). 2) drive interest in training and competing in sprints from the non-runners.
I'd probably start with the 2nd thing above, popularize 100m-400m racing among "non-runners". This is happening a bit with the rise of crossfit, general fitness people caring about their 400m time. the 40 yard dash could be another entry event for non-runners, with its popularity among NFL fans. Could you get a bunch of athletic people in a town that are fans of the NFL come out to a local track and get their 40 yard dash timed? maybe. Definitely if marketed right, through gyms, etc. Other aspects of sprinting need to be marketed to the non-runner athletes - ie market the 100m to 400m as being the best test of overall athleticism applying to the most sports (whether its true or not, sell it that way). Gym rats love to talk about their max bench, box jump pr, vertical leap, pull-up pr, back squat pr, etc.. Figure out what is the best track event to add to those important measures and make it as popular. Market and sell the 100m or 400m as being as an "important" measure as the vertical jump, one's bench, etc. Track and field athletes also need to be marketed as having the sexiest bodies on earth, and people would be interested in training for the events just for the correlation to sexiness.
If #2 is accomplished, #1 is easier to accomplish, moving hobby joggers down from 5k+ to track events. I think if gym rats an other athletes start being interested in competing in the 100m-400, you'll naturally have people otherwise running 5k+ road races with competitive drive interested in competing down at the shorter events. For others, it would have to be proven that the 100-400 is better to compete in than the 5k-marathon that people are currently competing in. I think the first and primary strategy would be to sell the sprints as the more healthy sport to participate in, in whatever way health is considered (improved libido, lower health disease, slowing aging, etc etc, whatever what one can come with). This may be easier to do if the shorter events start becoming more popular among otherwise non-runners. Also, the training would have to be marketed as being more fun and well rounded than distance training. Finally, the events should have to be sold as being more prestigious than distance running. It might never be a good sell to say participation in a 400m is more prestigious than completing a marathon, BUT you can certainly sell runners of all abilities that for a male, a 1 minute lap is widely known as being "better" than a BQ time.
I haven't even gotten to the beer mile and other non-traditional events. People could be drawn in track meets from all areas with the inclusion of the beer mile. How about relays? While other events going on, local running clubs may be interested in seeing how fast they can collectively run a marathon (26-mile) against each other, perhaps in lane 1-2, while the other events (all sprints) only utilize lines 3-8. Have an OCR competition on the infield.
Most people who do 5ks probably don't run more than a few times a week, if that. It's just not that important to most and have other interests. I'm guessing no more than 10% entries at most races are competitive. If that's the case, you would have a track meet with very few entries.
track chick wrote:
Bursting across the line, she falls onto the floor, panting and red-faced. 2:42!!! The man announces. It's below her goal but she doesn't have that same glow, the sense of achievement. She just feels silly!
I'd love to be able to run a 2:42 right now and I'm a guy. Ugh....
By the way, I enter open college meets and I usually finish last. I'm used to it. Being a Masters runner, I don't race to win, I race for times and to climb masters rankings.
Track meets are long and boring.
mystery wrote:
I looked up some results from the local road race (pre 2020), and the median men's time was around 27 minutes for guys under 40.
I then looked up results from the local all comers track meet (no pre-registration, no time standards, and a much cheaper entrance fee). The median men's 3200 time was in the low 12s, which is equivalent to a sub 20 5K.
So why are hobby joggers drawn to road races and not track races? Is it only because they want some race swag? I've seen all-comers meets hand out ribbons with runner's times on them and had T-shirts available for purchase, and it's still rare to see anything slower than a 6:00 mile at those meets.
Road races are plentiful, the market to the masses, they are open, encouraging, welcoming and accessible.
Track races are few and far between, intimidating (to some), restrictive, hard to find and don't market themselves to the masses. In fact, they seem to do their best to hide and keep the field small.
Few places have all comers meets. In places where such meets happen they are poorly advertised and happen sporadically, i.e., it wasn't there last year and may not be next year,whereas road races usually have plenty of advertising and if successful will happen repeatedly at the same time each year for several years. At a road race you show up, warm up, race, and go home if you don't want to wait for the awards ceremony. At a track meet you probably have to hang around for a while waiting for other races to end. You can't get lapped in a road race.
mystery wrote:
I looked up some results from the local road race (pre 2020), and the median men's time was around 27 minutes for guys under 40.
I then looked up results from the local all comers track meet (no pre-registration, no time standards, and a much cheaper entrance fee). The median men's 3200 time was in the low 12s, which is equivalent to a sub 20 5K.
So why are hobby joggers drawn to road races and not track races? Is it only because they want some race swag? I've seen all-comers meets hand out ribbons with runner's times on them and had T-shirts available for purchase, and it's still rare to see anything slower than a 6:00 mile at those meets.
Road races are more plentiful and better advertised. Most parts of the country have few or no all comers track meets.
flvmmox wrote:
elvid33 wrote:
Hobbyjoggers aren’t running 27-minute 5k’s.
Most of the people at races like the one described are walkers and people who have a friend or family member that dragged them to the starting line against their will who haven’t run at all in the past.
heavily disagree
nyc running clubs are chock full of people who would barely crack 30 in the 5k and identify as runners
It doesn't matter what you "identify" as. Most people would identify as "not stupid," but that doesn't make it true. Many people would identify as "smart," but that doesn't make it true.
People who jog as a hobby (let's say they go out for a jog at least twice a week), aren't running 27-minute 5k's. My obese coworkers who get dragged out to the one charity 5k per year that the company pays for are the ones running those times.
What is the appeal of running in a bunch of circles? Do you go on vacation and stay in your hotel room the entire time? Maybe if you did a road race you wouldn’t be so backed up.
The way I actually run an all-comer meet -- which I shamelessly copied from other meets I did -- Heats are stratified by age and self-seeded ability. Literally, turn in a card with ID info (bib #), event, and predicted time. We sort them and select heats. For sprints, under about 13 y.o. go in 2 or 3 year age groups. If I need a high performance heat for a specific demographic, I select that out separately. For multiple lap races up to 3200, I have a table to assure that if the self-seeded times are kind of in the ballpark, no one gets lapped. Sometimes, someone gets lapped in the slow heat of the 3200. (I do not generally run the 5K or 10K on the track.) This way, no one has the experience of getting truly blown out. The people who come really like the events, perhaps because they get to both do their own race and see other people race. Also, we would occasionally get some regional top performers. A 10.5 for the 100m turns heads, even if it is nowhere on the international scene. The economy of scale is not there. 5K and 1/2 marathon are mostly fundraising athletic parades with the race as a sideshow. It is a different audience.
oldmanjingle wrote:
A 5k on the track will never be able to compete with the experience of running a 5k on the road, for all the reasons described above.
If there is any hope to get more people involved in "hobby track meets", it would first require the popularization of shorter events for the hobby runner crowd, where the track experience outweigh the road running opportunity. I'd think a person looking to run a 400 or less (plus beer mile) would prefer to do it in a track meet setting rather than a road race setting, despite all the negatives described in previous posts. So if the 100-400 were something people would strive to train for and compete in rather than longer events, then you'd see hobby track meets.
So how do we make the 100m-400m more popular? 2 things must happen - 1) drive interest away from the longer distances 5k and up to participation in the shorter evens (plus beer mile). 2) drive interest in training and competing in sprints from the non-runners.
I'd probably start with the 2nd thing above, popularize 100m-400m racing among "non-runners". This is happening a bit with the rise of crossfit, general fitness people caring about their 400m time. the 40 yard dash could be another entry event for non-runners, with its popularity among NFL fans. Could you get a bunch of athletic people in a town that are fans of the NFL come out to a local track and get their 40 yard dash timed? maybe. Definitely if marketed right, through gyms, etc. Other aspects of sprinting need to be marketed to the non-runner athletes - ie market the 100m to 400m as being the best test of overall athleticism applying to the most sports (whether its true or not, sell it that way). Gym rats love to talk about their max bench, box jump pr, vertical leap, pull-up pr, back squat pr, etc.. Figure out what is the best track event to add to those important measures and make it as popular. Market and sell the 100m or 400m as being as an "important" measure as the vertical jump, one's bench, etc. Track and field athletes also need to be marketed as having the sexiest bodies on earth, and people would be interested in training for the events just for the correlation to sexiness.
If #2 is accomplished, #1 is easier to accomplish, moving hobby joggers down from 5k+ to track events. I think if gym rats an other athletes start being interested in competing in the 100m-400, you'll naturally have people otherwise running 5k+ road races with competitive drive interested in competing down at the shorter events. For others, it would have to be proven that the 100-400 is better to compete in than the 5k-marathon that people are currently competing in. I think the first and primary strategy would be to sell the sprints as the more healthy sport to participate in, in whatever way health is considered (improved libido, lower health disease, slowing aging, etc etc, whatever what one can come with). This may be easier to do if the shorter events start becoming more popular among otherwise non-runners. Also, the training would have to be marketed as being more fun and well rounded than distance training. Finally, the events should have to be sold as being more prestigious than distance running. It might never be a good sell to say participation in a 400m is more prestigious than completing a marathon, BUT you can certainly sell runners of all abilities that for a male, a 1 minute lap is widely known as being "better" than a BQ time.
I haven't even gotten to the beer mile and other non-traditional events. People could be drawn in track meets from all areas with the inclusion of the beer mile. How about relays? While other events going on, local running clubs may be interested in seeing how fast they can collectively run a marathon (26-mile) against each other, perhaps in lane 1-2, while the other events (all sprints) only utilize lines 3-8. Have an OCR competition on the infield.
I've seen a guy in a gorilla suit run a 5K road race, but I've never seen a guy in a gorilla suit run the 800m on a track.
I’ve been a semi-serious hobby jogger for 15 years in a major city, run about a million 5k/10k/HMs, and I’ve never heard of an open invitation track meet.
Probably that’s part of the problem.
It’s not as fun an experience where road races have music, costumes, beer...
They don’t want to run in a boring little oval. I ran the 10k in college on the track once. It’s like watching paint dry. Also a course with hills is much more interesting.
They run for health and want to burn more calories in longer races.
They don’t want to wait around for other events.
They like being part of a crowd. The energy it gives and ability to get lost in it.
1- They are more likely too busy making more money in a year than you'll see in a decade sniffing toes at the LRS;
2- Because track meets are hard to find outside of big city limits.
but mostly #1