Weight/Strength Training Periodization?

it depends on what you are referring, for a sprinter maximum force and power may be more apical, but depends on egoenegetis of a speciality.

If instead you refer to the periodization in endurance running, Lydiard was a pioneer, gave us alphabet but he is of 60 years ago..... then from the alphabet we go ahead, like Canova said billions of times.

For example, the training in marathon is completely reversed,: with strength and speed in winter and SPECIFIC ENDURANCE in summer because this is its bioenergetcs the Italians have been pioneers and something has been won...

the periodization of the can be considered conjugated.sequance system CSS but also "vertical" type, because the qualities are maintained in the blocks, as it says canova is more an add than to lose what you have.

"To conclude the session, Farah powered through the 185-pound squats and dead lifts. The reps were few, the intensity high."

That's from a runnerworld article about Mo transitioning to the marathon. I wouldn't be surprised if he was lifting more in 5k/10k training.

That's besides the point though. Lets not get sidetracked with the intricacies of what Oregon Project is doing. What I'm basically hearing I should do is focus on increasing weight of strength lifts, then introduce power exercises, maintain it for a while, then taper out. Yeah?

dogg wrote:

"To conclude the session, Farah powered through the 185-pound squats and dead lifts. The reps were few, the intensity high."

That's from a runnerworld article about Mo transitioning to the marathon. I wouldn't be surprised if he was lifting more in 5k/10k training.

That's besides the point though. Lets not get sidetracked with the intricacies of what Oregon Project is doing. What I'm basically hearing I should do is focus on increasing weight of strength lifts, then introduce power exercises, maintain it for a while, then taper out. Yeah?

185 quarter squats most runners can do without training (unless they are extremely slow twitch like Mo and need to train for that). His deadlifts were probably trap bar deadlifts (Hasay, Koko, all use a lot of trap bar deadlifts) which are also easier than conventional deadlifts. Why? They are kinda like a deadlift/squat hybrid, grip strength is not required and a lot easier on the back.

You are right, looking at what the top 1% of elite athletes are doing is useless for us. What I want you and others to understand is that it's not the strength training (in whatever form) that made Farah etc. what they were, but it's GENETICS, like VO2MAX, muscle fibers, tendon elasticity/range, ability to withstand 100+ mile weeks with hard workouts, mental strength, etc.

For your training, the most important thing is to learn perfect form on the main lifts - conventional deadlift, below parallel squat (high-bar or low-bar), strict press, bench press, and power clean. I don't think snatch, the most complicated lift is needed for runners since you don't need that extra overhead strength. I also don't think that cleans are needed, they make the movement much harder by adding the additional step of going under it (and being brave enough to do so with a damn heavy weight) and true back squats at very high weight activate much more muscle mass than a front squat at reduced weight during a clean. Just stick to power cleans.

Then you will become a very strong, well-rounded athlete for the bodyweight you are at. You won't become strong compared to lifters because with all the running you won't build muscle mass which is needed at one point to become stronger after getting the obvious early newbie adaptions.

Lift on your hard days after the workout - that way you will be a lot weaker, but still get the strength training done without affected your most important sessions (sport specific workouts aka running workouts).

You make a lot of sense but does the average person need to load the spine with a bar on the back? I work with HSers and I prefer olympic lift variations goblet and reaching squats. (If I know a kid will be running in college and probably doing more seriously lifting then I'll introduce them). Again does the average distance runner (posture like a question mark) need to load his back?

coach wrote:

You make a lot of sense but does the average person need to load the spine with a bar on the back? I work with HSers and I prefer olympic lift variations goblet and reaching squats. (If I know a kid will be running in college and probably doing more seriously lifting then I'll introduce them). Again does the average distance runner (posture like a question mark) need to load his back?

Absolutely not needed. Lifts need to be coached and supervised. Even the deadlift, one of the most simple lifts, can cause tremendous damage and injury to a HS kid if they don't use proper form because it's easy to go up to heavy weights quickly in the deadlift that can cause damage. Same in the squat.

Distance runners are naturally quite weak (you get the occasional talented 400/800 guy with a good amount of FT fibers and natural power, but most self-select themselves into running because they are more slow-twitch), so you got to be even careful. They got the mindset of suffering hard, and pushing hard, and doing that while lifting bars with plates without ideal form is a recipe for injury.

A standard progression for non-talented athletes (that should always start with barbells, but still supervision) would be: bodyweight squats -> goblet squats -> just the bar (or even a 15kg bar or something for girls).

Same for explosive movements - start with KB swing -> one-handed swings -> and build up to a one-handed snatch.

I think that anyone can learn how to squat properly with barbells (high-bar squat being easier than low-bar for most people to learn), but in a HS team the coach does not have the time to teach and supervise all athletes in potentially dangerous lifts. Pick maybe the best athletes with most strength and innate power, and then maybe add some that show great progress in the easier versions like goblet squat or built-up to doing one-handed snatches at 30 lb and so on. Don't put the skinny XC specialist (slow-twitch monster) under barbells with his rounded back and cause unnecessary injury for something that's not gonna improve his running THAT much anyway (and you can get some of the benefits with easier versions of the lift).

So getting back to the typical letsrun viewer who wants to embark on a strength program in their own home. Are they any different? No

Will lifting with kettlebells and dumbbells and bodyweight optimize someone's muscle strength and explosiveness? No, it won't but there are several reasons why you still want to do it with HS kids:

1) Distance runners are often so weak and fragile that gaining a little strength and packing on a little bit of muscle is already very beneficial. A little goes a VERY long way in that regard!

2) You teach them how to be an athlete. Running 6-7x a week is nice, but adding 3x strength training a week will get them used to train 2x a day which is going to be necessary in college and further on if the talent (or ambition) is there.

3) You prepare them for further, more advanced strength exercises like powerlifts (squat, deadlift, presses) and Olympic lifts (primarily power cleans, maybe full cleans/power snatches). Any strength work you do with them in HS will help them a lot down the road.

4) It's a lot safer than putting 15 barbells on a XC squad. These lifts require perfect technique to be efficient and injury-proof, I don't wanna imagine the form of 15 barbells on HS kids trying to learn how to lift, then getting competitive with each other putting far more weight than they can handle and somehow push through the reps with limited ROM and terrible farm and end up causing some significant, long-lasting injuries.

I'm not using KB/DB/BW exercises anymore, but they were an important stepping stone in become a solid lifter given my background. When I introduced barbell squats and deadlifts too early, without proper coaching it ended in disaster - the squats were just quarter squats (aka useless), and deadlifts with terrible form caused back injuries. Pull-ups were far too low range of motion. Also was too sore after every session due to way too many reps and way too much work. Had I started with kettlebells/dumbbells back then, I would have saved myself a lot of trouble.

coach wrote:

So getting back to the typical letsrun viewer who wants to embark on a strength program in their own home. Are they any different? No

So that was your ultimate point - yes I agree. Start with bodyweight, kettle bells, dumbbells, cross-fit group courses, build a base level of strength. Optimize form first with body weight squats, then goblet squats, then start thinking about signing up for a gym and advance to barbells. If you decide to do so, hire a coach for a few hours to show proper form and find an appropriate starting weight (some need to start squatting with just the bar, some stronger athletes can start at 140 pounds already for example).

Also, most commercial gyms don't have coaches very proficient in teaching the Olympic lifts like power cleans. They might now even allow them if they only have iron plates (or make them harder for you but not allowing you to drop the weight on the floor). So for that final step, an external coach is needed or changing to a weightlifting gym directly (don't go to Crossfit to learn Olympic barbell lifts, they rush through workouts and have the highest injury rates of sports recently).

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

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1) Quarter squat - the standard squat people do in gyms and runners start doing when they start lifting. Going just slightly above 90 degree angle or anything higher. This is not a squat. This is a quarter squat, MUCH easier, MUCH more weight can be used and MUCH less effective for strengthening the body.

And quarter squats are much more effective at developing sprint speed. I am guessing NOP cared a lot more about that than they did about general strength.

Jacoby out of Boise State did this with his jumpers over 30 years ago. Joe Kenn watched and has employed these ever since to his college and professional athletes.

No need to go deeper and risk injury for some of us. Is it more effective at building speed or just safer?

I believe the study he is referencing saw a decrease in 40 times, more so with 1/4 squats than 1/2 or full. But it should be noted that it's not the same weight for each squat. 1/4 squats will have the most weight because you are going through less motion. Pretty interesting stuff.

What does “amrap” signify? Always appreciate your input.

dogg wrote:

I believe the study he is referencing saw a decrease in 40 times, more so with 1/4 squats than 1/2 or full. But it should be noted that it's not the same weight for each squat. 1/4 squats will have the most weight because you are going through less motion. Pretty interesting stuff.

There are at least 3 studies that show the same thing. The general assumption is that your running ROM maps more to the quarter than full squats and benefits of being able to load more weight is better than the larger ROM. Your a runner not a body builder.

This isn't to say you should only be doing quarter squats. Doing full/half occasionally at moderate weights (say 1.5x BW) for general strength is good. But when it is time to do specific work, quarters look to be the best option.

And heavy is more a relative term than absolute based on an athletes 1rm max.

What I haven't seen a study of is how much to back off strength training during peaking. How long can you skip it before you start losing power?

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with the specificity aspect of the 1/4 squats. Maybe half or full squats could still have a place as part of a warmup routine with moderate weight so you're still keeping the full ROM during the more specific phase.

From my experience and what I've heard from some NCAA coaches that I've talked to is the tapering is pretty individualized of course.

There's some study that said proprioception/balance exercises should be stopped 4 weeks out before your peak race because it increases ground contact time slightly...I'll try to see if I can find the link for that. There's also something about static lifts not being the best close to races. I'll try to find that too.

As far as cutting out weightlifting, I don't think its very necessary. What I've done in the past is the last 2-3 weeks the weight is naturally dropped a tad because the focus is moving the weights quickly, and a lot of the upper body stuff is dropped. I think heavy lifting is still reasonable up until around 7-10 days before your race. After that I still go to the weight room, but there's very little volume.

I'm not a big fan of complete cutting things out, and I think 14 days would be the maximum that you'd want to stop lifting heavy. I've always been able to taper very well and get my times down quickly in a week or two. But that just works for me. Really depends on how the athlete is feeling.

Regarding cutting out static and heavy lifts, Boo Schexnayder who teaches the USTFCCCA believes there's no need for a sprinter or jumper to squat more than 2X body weight and cuts out squats half way through a macro cycle.

I know there are other opinions but I'll take his over others who dont have the experience working with track and field athletes. Most of the NSCA and NCAA strength coaches have football biases which is why track and field developed it's own strength and conditioning program.

coach wrote:

Regarding cutting out static and heavy lifts, Boo Schexnayder who teaches the USTFCCCA believes there's no need for a sprinter or jumper to squat more than 2X body weight and cuts out squats half way through a macro cycle.

I know there are other opinions but I'll take his over others who dont have the experience working with track and field athletes. Most of the NSCA and NCAA strength coaches have football biases which is why track and field developed it's own strength and conditioning program.

I have seen 1.75 to 2x in several places. I am guessing for distance guys the numbers might even be lower as adding 10lbs of muscle mass might be a poor trade off.

And there are definitely a lot more studies about incresing mass and strength than in power and sprinting speed.

It's amazing the number of words supposed athletes use to convince themselves not to lift and get strong.

Don't do a back squat.....do a front squat instead. Front squats are much easier to learn and less prone to injury. If you fatigue and roll into bad form the bar will literally just roll off your arms.

Do trap bar deadlifts not conventional. Again, it's much easier to learn and less prone to bad form.

Or don't lift *shrug*. People are determined to believe what they want about certain topics. Is what it is.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

It's amazing the number of words supposed athletes use to convince themselves not to lift and get strong.

Don't do a back squat.....do a front squat instead. Front squats are much easier to learn and less prone to injury. If you fatigue and roll into bad form the bar will literally just roll off your arms.

Do trap bar deadlifts not conventional. Again, it's much easier to learn and less prone to bad form.

Or don't lift *shrug*. People are determined to believe what they want about certain topics. Is what it is.

Alan

So because something is easier it's a reason to not do the better version? The question should be whether to high-bar or low-bar back squat, but not whether to back-squat or front squat because the back squat is far superior in many aspects.

1) It develops the posterior chain much more (especially glutes and hamstrings)

2) Much better stimulus for developing the lower back. Runners need strong lower backs to avoid injuries in that spot.

3) Recruits more muscle mass. More hip flexion.

3) Can be done with significantly more weight. More weight means more strength, the runner gets a lot stronger.

Many experts on lifting don't teach the front squat at all, especially not in the beginning as it could interfere with learning a proper back squat technique (the lifts are substantially different, and learning both simultaneously can confuse beginners who think just about squatting). The glutes are the strongest muscle in our legs, not the quads, understand that!

And don't even get me started on the trap bar. They are easier and it's hard to screw them up, but they are not better. Trap bars are more like a standing leg press or a squat with vertical back. Why make another squat-like lift if you can already do the real thing and back-squat? Make deadlifts conventional and a true hip hinge movement, focused on the posterior chain. What injury risk is there with proper form and straight back? Don't make a deadlift seem like an Olympic snatch, it's dragging a bar up at your shins with a straight back and locking out. I'd be able to argue with you if you were to decide whether straps or hook grip is better for a runner, but conventional deadlift vs trap bar is just a no-brainer.

If people don't have the knowledge to teach the back squat or conventional deadlift properly to athletes/runners, then I understand the need to find easier exercises to still give them an option to lift and get a bit stronger. But maybe it would also be worth considering to add a real S&C coach then that knows his stuff and can teach these lifts in one session. These are not squat cleans / snatches complexity type of lifts. And if the problem is that your athletes get injured because they lift way more than their current capacity can handle, maybe coach them mentally, I mean they also don't go out in 4:50/mi pace in a 5k for the first 1k when their PR is 19:00.

As Many Reps As Possible

Don't get too caught up in the details.

Do a front squat and/or trap bar deadlift. Do one on Tuesday. Do one on Friday. Or if you can handle it do em both same day. Do 5 reps. Add weight. Do 5 reps. Continue until you can no longer do 5 reps. It is take more than 5-6 sets you either started too light or didn't jump enough in between. It's a trial and error process until you figure out what starting weight and what jumps work for you.

The upper body lifts are just secondary. Don't fret too much. One pull, one push, rotate workout to workout between vertical and horizontal.

Once you have some general strength and athleticism then try adding in some sort of explosive plyometric movement. You could even be cute and do actual hill bounds if you have steps or a short steep hill nearby. Focus on explosion not duration.

Alan