Sounds like you just aren’t in 21:59 5k shape yet. Your 5k race pace tempo you did is probably actually your VO2max interval pace and that’s why you can hold it for 10 min and then feel your breathing super hard.
You don’t want that huge of a negative split either.
I predict 22:17.
as someone who is stuck around these paces, I concur. 'erratic breathing', 'it hurts', etc are really just different ways of observing your fitness isn't there yet
still, a 'tempo' effort [8/10?] vs solo TT [9/10 ?] vs race-effort [10/10] all represent different outputs from the same basic fitness
My personal goal had/has always been to say have a <20 min 5k as a solo-TT effort capable thing, where HR gets to around ~93% of HRM. Ofc HR isnt an absolute, and some monitors are better than others but if you measure effort, HR, and results a bit you get an idea where you are on the 8/10 vs 9/10 spectrum if you are struggling with perceived vs actual effort sometimes HR results can help
Personally the 'tempo' efforts seem to offer the most results in terms of improvement over this distance.
with respect to neg/positive splits, everyone knows that every distance over 800m, has a current WR set with negative splits
That being said, everyone and their brother goes out in a 5k with a slightly too hot 400m, just dont go too crazy. I personally feel that your ~1 mile TT race pace represents the danger zone. Don't touch it [much] in a 5k race. And if you do, don't do it for long [unless you're in contention for winning the thing, then race tactics will be in play and there might be some benefit to ignoring this, eg race the person not the clock]
anyways, you can probably get close to your 1 mile /TT/solo pace in the first 200m of a 5k and it won't have [much?] consequence. The full first mile maybe 5K goal pace -3-5s isn't the worst thing in the world, but you probably went out too hot. But this is really just part of finding your limits. Sometimes you have to risk it all to find where those limits are, so in hindsight maybe you didnt go out 3-5s too fast. Anyways rambling off
UPDATE: Ran the 5k at exactly 22:00 minutes. 7:05 overall pace. Spilts: 7:02, 7:03, 7:15, (Last 0.1, 6:08). Obviously gotta work on that last mile where I slowed down. The first mile and a half felt great tho, after that it was terrible. Will take everyone’s advice here and develop my aerobic system more and see if I can knock some of that time off in a month or so!
If properly aerobically trained, 22min race pace should not feel that way for the breathing, unless you breathe incomplete. I try to exhale fully to remove the CO2 and I feel the filling of the lungs comes more easier and automatic than exhaling.
When I do threshold pace work (which is 50-60min race pace), my breathing is steady and rythmic. I use a 2 step exhale and a 1 step inhale, at approx 170 steps pr min. Ladies with shorter height can have higher cadences though (I geomtrical or physics thing really). If I increase the pace to let us say 40min race pace or below, the cadence does not match with the breathing rate so it kind of breaks down, but I still try to exhale fully.
If the thing is you need to develop the VO2max, it is just a question of time since I think your milage is enough to develop. Think of doing some 3k and even faster intervall workouts (500-800m) with not too long rest. But this is hard work. Research has also shown that short intervalls such as 30-60/30, 15-45/15 are excellent workouts for VO2 max development. Since the duration is short enough for keeping a fast pace and the rest is not so long that the body goes out of VO2 max state (it takes 60-90sec to get into max VO2 state so a rest more than 45-60s might move you out again). Also research has shown that a long intervall (let us say 4-5min duration) where the first 90sec is fast and hard and the rest is easier will get you into VO2 max and keep you there even if the pace overall is easier than VO2 max pace (for instance your 10k or threshold pace). So long intervalls with a hard start and easier finish can do the job as well.
Aspiring Runner wrote:
Mileage will always help build lung and aerobic capacity. As well as training at your race pace with the goal of teaching yourself to relax your breathing. To oversimplify it, run more, and run relaxed. I hope that helped a little bit (I am a guy running about mid 17s in the 5k xc) Good luck.
Any sources for mileage building lung capacity ?
I got next wrote:
as someone who is stuck around these paces, I concur. 'erratic breathing', 'it hurts', etc are really just different ways of observing your fitness isn't there yet
There is a difference - "erratic breathing/gasping for air" usually means that the aerobic system is the limiter. This does not necessarily mean that she is hurting/her brain wants her to slow down, it could just be that the rate of oxygen flow-in and flow-out is limiting. The fitter she gets, the better this will get, or in other words - it will happen at a faster pace. This is often the limiting factor for recreational runners. This is also aggravated by allergies and other conditions, small lungs, low VO2MAX, few mitochondria, etc.
Pain / hurting / brain sending signals to stop is when lactate levels get very high (not due to the lactate, but due to the build-up of hydrogen ions that correlate with the production of lactate). In elite runners, this is almost always the limiting factor. They are so talented (and trained/fit) aerobically that it's more about the lactate and H+ build-up than a case of simply not moving in/out enough air.
There is a strong correlation between both, and a strong correlation between both and heart rate. A fit runner with a low VO2MAX might be able to struggle with breathing running 5:00 pace, but can run comfortably 5:20 pace for a 10k. By contrast, an unfit, very talented HS runner might not breathe much during 5:00 pace but his legs can't keep up and he can't maintain threshold paces like 5:20 for a long time.
Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:
If properly aerobically trained, 22min race pace should not feel that way for the breathing, unless you breathe incomplete. I try to exhale fully to remove the CO2 and I feel the filling of the lungs comes more easier and automatic than exhaling.
When I do threshold pace work (which is 50-60min race pace), my breathing is steady and rythmic. I use a 2 step exhale and a 1 step inhale, at approx 170 steps pr min. Ladies with shorter height can have higher cadences though (I geomtrical or physics thing really). If I increase the pace to let us say 40min race pace or below, the cadence does not match with the breathing rate so it kind of breaks down, but I still try to exhale fully.
If the thing is you need to develop the VO2max, it is just a question of time since I think your milage is enough to develop. Think of doing some 3k and even faster intervall workouts (500-800m) with not too long rest. But this is hard work. Research has also shown that short intervalls such as 30-60/30, 15-45/15 are excellent workouts for VO2 max development. Since the duration is short enough for keeping a fast pace and the rest is not so long that the body goes out of VO2 max state (it takes 60-90sec to get into max VO2 state so a rest more than 45-60s might move you out again). Also research has shown that a long intervall (let us say 4-5min duration) where the first 90sec is fast and hard and the rest is easier will get you into VO2 max and keep you there even if the pace overall is easier than VO2 max pace (for instance your 10k or threshold pace). So long intervalls with a hard start and easier finish can do the job as well.
This is an excellent post, except for the first statement, which was so flawed that after reading it, some may be inclined to tune out the rest of the good advice given. The statement that "22min race pace should not feel that way for the breathing" is just wrong. Regardless of one's point of development, I don't care if one is a 15minute runner, or a 22 minute runner, they both will go through that point in a race (key word) where they very well may ask themselves, "why I am I doing this?". When racing a 5k, one is taken well beyond Lactate Threshold, and to their 2nd (if not 3rd) ventilatory threshold, and it is not going to feel "comfortable".
With that out of the way, I wish to expand upon what was said about the breathing and emphasizing the "exhale" rather than the "inhale". You can try this experiment sitting down:
Step 1, Breathe out 3 seconds then in 3 seconds, normally.
Step 2. Now try the same cadence (3 secs in, 3secs out) but emphasize the inhale (take a big breath whereby you can hear the loud rush of air into your mouth). Your shoulders should rise as you try to forcefully suck in air.
Step 3. And lastly, try doing the opposite in this manner: on the exhale, use your diaphragm to squeeze the air out; squeeze hard, to try and exhale completely, and notice what happens on the inhale. What happens on the inhale is that the air will rush into your lungs rapidly, without you even putting in effort to inhale. The rushing intake will sound as loud (if not louder) as it did in step 2. BUT, your shoulders do not need to rise up like they did in step 2. Why is that? Because you squeezed out so much air on the exhale, that you created a vacuum in your lungs, and atmospheric pressure will push air into your lungs to fill the void.
But when trying to breathe that way when running, why does that not cost energy to exhale with the diaphragm like that? It does, but you don't spend as much energy as you would in trying to gulp in air. In addition, the squeezing of the diaphragm and breathing, in cadence with the foot-falls, helps in-effect, to tighten up the posture to absorb the shock load of running.
Try it when running. When you pass from the 1st ventilatory threshold, from 3out-3in, to 2out-2in, instead try 3out-1in, putting a little extra effort in squeezing the air out, and you'll find the air rushes back in when it is time to breathe in.
Ok regarding 22min race pace. I know how I breathe at the end of a 6min vo2max test with a mask on a treadmill . That's bad, while a 22min race is comfortable in comparison. That's what I based it on. Of course at the end of the 22min race it's as bad
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
It means that your breathing / aerobic capacity is lagging behind your leg strength and power to maintain a fast pace.
In other words - your VO2MAX is not that high. Believe it or not, there is a high genetic component to running and other endurance sports.
You could try switching to 100/200m sprints if you got great natural speed and enjoy the distances. Or work on getting your aerobic capacity up, by lots of training.
I started struggling with breathing once I got to a 19:00 5k, but still trained myself to a 15:55 5k (still breathing issues during all races, but more efficient and stronger).
So I think for you, long term, a time in the 18 minute/19 low range should be possible, but the breathing might always be the limiting factor.
What I don't get my is that my VO2 is ridiculously high for a female, yet I if you heard my breathing during intense exercise, it sounds like I have respiratory disease. My VO2 max was measured as 64 ml/kg/min on a treadmill using gas exchange but I still feel that my breathing is sometimes my limiting factor.
Maybe part of the reason is that I am terribly inefficient. I have a VO2 of an elite female runner, yet I'm running no where close to their times.
Also I have no chest pain or any other symptoms of asthma despite terriably grasping for air during physical exertion. I think what I am experiencing is exercise hypoxemia. This problem occurs in some well-trained athetes during high exertion. This may be the OP's problem if she has been running seriously for a while or came from another endurance sport such as XC skiing.
Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:
Ok regarding 22min race pace. I know how I breathe at the end of a 6min vo2max test with a mask on a treadmill . That's bad, while a 22min race is comfortable in comparison. That's what I based it on. Of course at the end of the 22min race it's as bad
Okay point taken. Relatively speaking, it seems a 6min vo2max test with a mask would be like wearing a mask on a treadmill while running a mile all-out, and not very fun. But without that explanation, the way your statement came across the first time could possibly be interpreted that 22min 5k runners are not working as hard as faster 5k runners.
jazzytherunner wrote:
What I don't get my is that my VO2 is ridiculously high for a female, yet I if you heard my breathing during intense exercise, it sounds like I have respiratory disease. My VO2 max was measured as 64 ml/kg/min on a treadmill using gas exchange...
When the VO2max test was conducted, did it sound like you had "respiratory disease" then? If so, what did the people taking the test think about it?
jazzytherunner wrote:
Also I have no chest pain or any other symptoms of asthma despite terriably grasping for air during physical exertion. I think what I am experiencing is exercise hypoxemia. This problem occurs in some well-trained athetes during high exertion. This may be the OP's problem if she has been running seriously for a while or came from another endurance sport such as XC skiing.
What is your opinion on what I wrote earlier regarding the exhale test. Did you understand it? Do you think it could help?
With the sound of the treadmill and the oxygen mask being on, the people conducting my test could not really hear my breathing, but I was defiantly grasping for air.
In regards to my crazy breathing, a video is attached below so you can hear what it sounds like. I am running a 2k time race/time trial. This video is of my mile split. It it means anything regarding my breathing, I went out WAY too fast and totally died. I split 2:32 at the 800m and came through the mile in 5:31.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auMap1qjLhQ
I showed this video to other people. They thought that the reason why I was breathing so hard was that I went out too fast and am good at physically pushing myself. I would definitely say that being a former swimmer in high school has taught me mental toughness. From a physical excursion standpoint, oftentimes the workouts I did in swim were harder than the ones I did in track. I am certainly accustomed to the feeling of gasping for air. I am curious to see what other posters think of my breathing.
With the exhale test, it appears that you are empathizing a forceful exhalation. I have yet to try it running.
Let me share a story. Eight years ago, after taking up running five years earlier, (and being injured probably half of those five years due to something or other), I worked myself down to a sub-1:26 half, and two weeks later, a sub-19 5k. I ran the 5k race in Southern California, which was loaded with people; I was surrounded. I distinctly remember one guy as being a very loud, heavy breather, and he kept up with our pack for close to two miles. It found it to very annoying to my concentration, when running all out myself. I wasn't sure if the guy was going to have a heart attack, or what.
Fast forward to today, whereby I took up running again last May, and now I'm the heavy breather, and I'm trying to break 21, before trying to break 20. The point here, is that from your video, I could not hear anything unusual.
Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:
Okay point taken. Relatively speaking, it seems a 6min vo2max test with a mask would be like wearing a mask on a treadmill while running a mile all-out, and not very fun. But without that explanation, the way your statement came across the first time could possibly be interpreted that 22min 5k runners are not working as hard as faster 5k runners.
Point taken too :-) I did of course not imply the effort was any less doing a 22min race.
But regarding VO2 max tests, I have experienced that the max reading is when the breathing and running is hard, but still controlled. When I started to work for it, the VO2 intake decreased. I think that is an indication that controlled and complete breathing has an effect.
Another thing is that I really use the breathing to control intensity. It is a good indicator for me for the anaerobic threshold
Here is a side question for you, if you have the equipment. I have a Garmin 945, and use a Garmin TRI chest strap. It allows me to look at 'Running Dynamics', including 'Respiration Rate' (note, off-hand, I don't know if the Garmin 'Respiration Rate' metric is available to those without the TRI or RUNNING heart rate strap). Do you look at the Respiration Rate metric, if available to you? It's somewhat interesting (although I can't vouch for its accuracy).
Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:
Here is a side question for you, if you have the equipment. I have a Garmin 945, and use a Garmin TRI chest strap. It allows me to look at 'Running Dynamics', including 'Respiration Rate' (note, off-hand, I don't know if the Garmin 'Respiration Rate' metric is available to those without the TRI or RUNNING heart rate strap). Do you look at the Respiration Rate metric, if available to you? It's somewhat interesting (although I can't vouch for its accuracy).
"How does my Garmin device measure Respiration Rate?
From Firstbeat Analytics: "Each breath you take is coded into your heart rate variability (HRV). The length of time between consecutive heartbeats shortens slightly as you inhale and lengthens as you exhale. The term for this biological phenomenon is respiratory sinus arrhythmia (RSA).
The ability to analytically extract respiration rate from HRV data depends on accurate heartbeat data. The degree to which one's heart rate changes from one beat to the next can be a matter of milliseconds. Challenging monitoring conditions related to the performance of physical activity mean that the pinpoint accuracy needed for this analysis is only achievable using a chest strap type heart rate monitor."
https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=2yEgS0Pax53UDqUH7q4WC6That's a VERY fast pace for a tempo run for a 22-minute 5K runner. Try running at 8:00 pace and see if your breathing improves. If so, you can drop down to 7:45 and take stock again. But no need to run tempos that fast. That's a pace for a 21:00 runner, or even a 20:00 runner.
It's good to be tough, but red-lining in practice is counterproductive.
Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:
Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:
If properly aerobically trained, 22min race pace should not feel that way for the breathing, unless you breathe incomplete. I try to exhale fully to remove the CO2 and I feel the filling of the lungs comes more easier and automatic than exhaling.
When I do threshold pace work (which is 50-60min race pace), my breathing is steady and rythmic. I use a 2 step exhale and a 1 step inhale, at approx 170 steps pr min. Ladies with shorter height can have higher cadences though (I geomtrical or physics thing really). If I increase the pace to let us say 40min race pace or below, the cadence does not match with the breathing rate so it kind of breaks down, but I still try to exhale fully.
If the thing is you need to develop the VO2max, it is just a question of time since I think your milage is enough to develop. Think of doing some 3k and even faster intervall workouts (500-800m) with not too long rest. But this is hard work. Research has also shown that short intervalls such as 30-60/30, 15-45/15 are excellent workouts for VO2 max development. Since the duration is short enough for keeping a fast pace and the rest is not so long that the body goes out of VO2 max state (it takes 60-90sec to get into max VO2 state so a rest more than 45-60s might move you out again). Also research has shown that a long intervall (let us say 4-5min duration) where the first 90sec is fast and hard and the rest is easier will get you into VO2 max and keep you there even if the pace overall is easier than VO2 max pace (for instance your 10k or threshold pace). So long intervalls with a hard start and easier finish can do the job as well.
This is an excellent post, except for the first statement, which was so flawed that after reading it, some may be inclined to tune out the rest of the good advice given. The statement that "22min race pace should not feel that way for the breathing" is just wrong. Regardless of one's point of development, I don't care if one is a 15minute runner, or a 22 minute runner, they both will go through that point in a race (key word) where they very well may ask themselves, "why I am I doing this?". When racing a 5k, one is taken well beyond Lactate Threshold, and to their 2nd (if not 3rd) ventilatory threshold, and it is not going to feel "comfortable".
With that out of the way, I wish to expand upon what was said about the breathing and emphasizing the "exhale" rather than the "inhale". You can try this experiment sitting down:
Step 1, Breathe out 3 seconds then in 3 seconds, normally.
Step 2. Now try the same cadence (3 secs in, 3secs out) but emphasize the inhale (take a big breath whereby you can hear the loud rush of air into your mouth). Your shoulders should rise as you try to forcefully suck in air.
Step 3. And lastly, try doing the opposite in this manner: on the exhale, use your diaphragm to squeeze the air out; squeeze hard, to try and exhale completely, and notice what happens on the inhale. What happens on the inhale is that the air will rush into your lungs rapidly, without you even putting in effort to inhale. The rushing intake will sound as loud (if not louder) as it did in step 2. BUT, your shoulders do not need to rise up like they did in step 2. Why is that? Because you squeezed out so much air on the exhale, that you created a vacuum in your lungs, and atmospheric pressure will push air into your lungs to fill the void.
But when trying to breathe that way when running, why does that not cost energy to exhale with the diaphragm like that? It does, but you don't spend as much energy as you would in trying to gulp in air. In addition, the squeezing of the diaphragm and breathing, in cadence with the foot-falls, helps in-effect, to tighten up the posture to absorb the shock load of running.
Try it when running. When you pass from the 1st ventilatory threshold, from 3out-3in, to 2out-2in, instead try 3out-1in, putting a little extra effort in squeezing the air out, and you'll find the air rushes back in when it is time to breathe in.
This is very close.
Years ago after a potentially career ending injury that forced me to take two years off running, I resolved to look at everything I could change to become better. Even if one change was only a tiny improvement, cumulatively they would add up. And it worked. This approach took me from above average to world class, but it took many years.
One of those changes was diaphragmatic breathing (a misnomer, but that's what it is called). The idea is to forcefully breathe out by contracting your abs and allow air to flow into your lungs naturally. If your chest is heaving as you breathe, you are doing it wrong. (Google it.)
Diaphragmatic breathing is deeper, forcing more stale air out. It's also calming because when you force air out, some of it goes out through the nose. Nasal breathing (also a bit of a misnomer) triggers a complex but noticeable calming effect that helps relax.
You should be able to exhale in 1 to 1 1/2 steps. How quickly you let air come in before your next breath depends on pace.
If you try diaphragmatic breathing on an easy run, you will hyperventilate and get dizzy. For a moderately hard pace (tempo or long interval) you might start with a 1 1/2 to 3 1/2 pattern. At faster paces, it would be 1-3 and in the final kick, it would be 1-2. The 1-2 pattern is hard to hold for very long, but with practice, it can be held for a longer time (150-300m). The 1-3 pattern (actually it's more like 1 1/2 to 2 1/2) can be held for a 5k once your diaphragm and abs can handle it.
I routinely do breathing drills in tempos. I'll run 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, and stop breathing for a few strides until I feel the need to repeat. Then, it's 1-2, 1-2, 1-2 again.
In the 800m, I'll go 1-3 from the start and switch briefly to 1-2 throughout the race. In the last 150-200m, I'll go 1-2 to the finish. Once your diaphragm and abs are strong enough to handle it, switching to 1-2 feels like a supercharger.
One final point, everything you do... everything from breathing, cadence, push off, landing, training program, fueling, and cross-training... should be OPTIMIZED for your chosen distance.
One additional point, some people refer to the longer pattern as 2-3 or 2-4.
Breathing out in 2 steps is too slow. In a race, you'll need to be able to do it in 1 or 1 1/2 steps so you should practice it that way. As much as possible, do drills to optimize what you will be doing in a race, not in a training run.
Thus a 2-3 becomes 1-4 or 1.5-3.5.
A 2-4 becomes 1-5 or 1.5-4.5.
To ensure that some of the air is coming out of your nose on exhale, cover your mouth and forcefully breathe out. For me, it's just as easy as breathing out with my mouth open.
Using your nose triggers a complex chemical reaction in the body, similar to meditation.
Now, all this about breathing isn't going to replace training to improve your VO2Max. It's a technique to become a little better. The little things add up.