Jim Ryun calls out Hicham El Guerrouj!!

morerron wrote:

You are incoherent. Please learn to compose cogent sentences before responding again.

Please learn to write a complete sentence without using the thesaurus on every word.

ex-runner wrote:

What is interesting about this is when Trump offers legitimate reasons as to why "they" are much faster now (training, technology) Ryun instead insinuates drug usage.

.

That is despite the fact that Alan Webb is standing in the room who ran 3:46 - much faster than Ryun.

.

And despite the obvious facts that Ryun ran on cinder tracks, was not able to learn from the training philosophies of Lydiard or Horwill or the many exercise physiologists, had no idea about altitude training and burnt himself out young.

.

Just on the last point, even Alan Webb who is criticised as burning out young, ran his career best time at 24. Ryun was 20.

.

I think it's a shame that Ryun has taken the opinion that those that came after him and ran faster than him did so by cheating.

I agree with you on these points.

I can't say no to a bit of cheescake wrote:

Trump probably knows Keino cheated Ryun out of gold in Mexixo.

How dare that African tribesman run away from the great American hero!

Sorry, but anyone around 3:50 and you have to wonder. That’s what track has become. Every one is suspect and it’s hard to taken anyone seriously anymore.

Jim Qualmsley wrote:

Trump was more involved in the sports scene than any previous President.

He hosted the Tyson- Spinks fight and owned a professional football team at one point.

He is more knowledgeable about sports than the average fan for sure.

And he bestowed this honor on an American distance runner when he could have pandered to the left with a different selection.

None of that makes Trump more knowledgeable than the average sports fan (perhaps more than the average non-fan, sure). Trump has done a lot of things in his career to raise his profile . There is nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't mean he is a fan and certainly doesn't mean he is knowledgeable. Presidents are briefed on relevant facts before public events so they can seem up to speed. There is nothing in Trump's past that suggests he is a fan of T&F, and particularly a fan of distance running.

ex-runner wrote:

What is interesting about this is when Trump offers legitimate reasons as to why "they" are much faster now (training, technology) Ryun instead insinuates drug usage.

That is despite the fact that Alan Webb is standing in the room who ran 3:46 - much faster than Ryun.

And despite the obvious facts that Ryun ran on cinder tracks, was not able to learn from the training philosophies of Lydiard or Horwill or the many exercise physiologists, had no idea about altitude training and burnt himself out young.

Just on the last point, even Alan Webb who is criticised as burning out young, ran his career best time at 24. Ryun was 20.

I think it's a shame that Ryun has taken the opinion that those that came after him and ran faster than him did so by cheating.

A couple things:

First - Ryun did not have smart training at all and didn't reach his full potential. With better coaching he could have run much faster. Regardless, he ran a SOLO 3:51.1 on a CINDER track, w/ a first 800 of 1:58.6 and 2nd 800 of 1:52.5. Clearly he could have run faster, and you can see he wasn't even tired after the race.

Second - It's pretty safe to say many of those that ran faster than him were doped. Not all, but many. Especially once you get closer to the record.

ex-runner wrote:

And despite the obvious facts that Ryun ran on cinder tracks, was not able to learn from the training philosophies of Lydiard or Horwill or the many exercise physiologists, had no idea about altitude training and burnt himself out young.

Ryun worked with Dr. Jack Daniels, starting in 1966, and later, also coach Joe Vigil in Alamosa before Mexico City.

Judging from your username, you should realize that t & f was many times more popular in Ryun's day. Certainly Trump may well have had to be briefed on who Centro and even Webb are, but Ryun was a household name back then, at least as big as Usain Bolt was a few years ago. Just as every schoolboy could name each of the eight boxing champions, they could name each Olympic track champion, and certainly the world mile record holder.

The reason Jim Ryun does not have an Olympic gold medal is not due to Ben Jipcho & Kipchoge Keino racing as a team, 1968 Olympics, 1500m final.

The reason Jim Ryun does not have an Olympic gold medal is not due to Kipchoge Keino using P.E.D.s, 1968 Olympics.

The reason why Jim Ryun does not have an Olympic gold medal is due to Ryun focusing on the wrong event. If Ryun were born & raised in a nation that does not glorify one mile, Jim Ryun would have been an 800m specialist. Ryun was very large for a 1500m/one mile athlete. [Same height & weight as Duane Solomon.] Ryun's size really worked against him racing 1500m at 7500ft., 1968 Olympics. Ryun had too much talent to train like a Clydesdale. If Ryun from age 12 to age 27 had been a low mileage 800m man, he would have been far more successful at Olympics. There would have been no need for Ryun to be chippy toward Hicham el G if Ryun were a gold medal 800m man.

ex-runner wrote:

What is interesting about this is when Trump offers legitimate reasons as to why "they" are much faster now (training, technology) Ryun instead insinuates drug usage.

That is despite the fact that Alan Webb is standing in the room who ran 3:46 - much faster than Ryun.

And despite the obvious facts that Ryun ran on cinder tracks, was not able to learn from the training philosophies of Lydiard or Horwill or the many exercise physiologists, had no idea about altitude training and burnt himself out young.

Just on the last point, even Alan Webb who is criticised as burning out young, ran his career best time at 24. Ryun was 20.

I think it's a shame that Ryun has taken the opinion that those that came after him and ran faster than him did so by cheating.

Given that Ryun ran on dirt for his 3:33.1, 3:51.3 and 3:51.1; I’d say Ryun was capable of [ 3:47.6, maybe 3:46.7 to as low as 3:43.989 with better pacing ]* ... on today’s rubber carpets.

* most experts believe 1.5% is a fair estimate of the drag on the dirt surfaces.

I agree that given Trump's age he likely knew who Ryan was back in the '60s, but that alone doesn't mean he is a T&F fan or knows much about it. Trump's adult life is about self-promotion, business, and golf. And that is fine, but it doesn't scream T&F fan or fan of any sport he can't regularly see on TV.

Coevett wrote:

Everybody with any knowledge of track history, and who possesses a rational, working brain, knows that El G was doped to the gills. You can make the argument if you wish that 'all his rivals were too', but what you can't do is compare him to those who went before, such as Ryun, at least not by times.

I wonder if this will be reported on in Moroccan media? I doubt if they would care, because it's a completely different culture there.

Love Trump. Americans are lucky to have him as president.

BTW, I think he was setting up Ryun for that kind of a reply there. Trump knows his track and field history and that the sport has been ruined by dopers.

I've just gone off you.

Not sure about t&f but he certainly knows how to pull a fake injury.

ehso wrote:

Coevett wrote:

BTW, I think he was setting up Ryun for that kind of a reply there. Trump knows his track and field history and that the sport has been ruined by dopers.

I shouldn’t even engage here, but among all the implausible and obviously false things people choose to believe about Trump, the idea that he “knows his track and field history” might be one of the strangest I’ve heard.

Yeah... "he ran a time of "3 point fifty one one"

His pretend knowledge is scripted.

ex-runner wrote:

What is interesting about this is when Trump offers legitimate reasons as to why "they" are much faster now (training, technology) Ryun instead insinuates drug usage.

That is despite the fact that Alan Webb is standing in the room who ran 3:46 - much faster than Ryun.

And despite the obvious facts that Ryun ran on cinder tracks, was not able to learn from the training philosophies of Lydiard or Horwill or the many exercise physiologists, had no idea about altitude training and burnt himself out young.

Just on the last point, even Alan Webb who is criticised as burning out young, ran his career best time at 24. Ryun was 20.

I think it's a shame that Ryun has taken the opinion that those that came after him and ran faster than him did so by cheating.

You've claimed here that 'everybody cheats given the opportunity', yet you appear to believe that El G (or Ngeny, Komen etc.) did not take advantage of EPO when there was no testing for it.

He might have been including Alan Webb in his dig, but more likely the likes of El G.

3:46 is not really much faster than Ryun when you take into account the factors you listed. 3:43 is a other level, especially when the likes of Coe, Cram, and Ovett, similar level talents to Ryun, ran 3 orto 5 seconds slower just a few years before with very similar training.

As a HS runner in the 70's, I always thought sub-4 was pretty much the standard for HS runners because Jim Ryun had done 3:55 in HS, after all, so why shouldn't everyone else? He set a standard so far above everyone else that it took another 40 years for anyone to break it. I got a chance to meet Ryun in person a few years ago and even ran a mile with him with my son. He's a wonderful, humble man and a great role model. I don't agree with all of his or Trump's politics, but that doesn't stop me from giving credit where credit is due.

Wow, Jim Ryun's not a fan of pacemakers in record attempts!

That's what he referred to with "things that are not so good", right?

Coevett wrote:

3:43 is a other level, especially when the likes of Coe, Cram, and Ovett, similar level talents to Ryun, ran 3 or 5 seconds slower just a few years before with very similar training.

1.Just noting it was 3-4 seconds slower between your beloved Brits and Ngeny/El G.

2. It was 4-5 seconds between Ryun and the Brits's 1500/mile equivalents and a 15-20 year difference.

3. The Brits' WR runs were not a few years before El-G/Ngeny, they were 12-18 years before.

4. Cram's 3:46.32 mile was also not paced as well as El G's 3:43.12. Cram ran 57.2, 1:54.5 (57.3), 2:53 (58.7), and 3:46.3 (53.3). El G's splits meanwhile were roughly 55.5, 1:51.8 (56.2), 2:47.9 (56.1), 3:43.1 (55.2). Conservatively with better pacing, Cram was into the 3:45s.

5. Jim Ryun's pacing was even worse, and then you throw in the lack of rabbits, crappy tracks, inferior shoes and so on. Who knows how fast Ryun would run if he were dropping into a race in the '80s and '90s with a pacer...Definitely way faster.

That 1.5% comparing "(soft) cinders to synthetic" (David Epstein) was using the context of comparing Bannister in the 50's with "today's synthetic tracks" (2014).

People who have run on dirt tracks have stated that there is a wide range in the quality and maintenance of them, even more so if you're comparing a mid '50's local track' in Oxford with a newly laid one at the Olympic stadium in LA in the late 60's. I would also add that the synthetic tracks in the last decade, certainly the ones at the Diamond Laegue meets and the Olympics/Worlds, will in themselves be faster than the first synthetic tracks of the '70's. Thus a blanket 1.5% is rather vague.

I've heard some say that a synthetic track is half a second a lap faster, and if we calculate 1.5% in a 57.78 sec lap (the average 440 for Ryun's 3:51.1 WR), it is worth 0.87.

I think 0.6 - 0.7secs a lap is reasonable average to use on a well kept cinder to '70's synthetic. Let's take 0.65.

So Ryun's 3:33.1 would be equivalent to around 3:30.7 and his 3:51.1 mile worth about 3:48.5.

With better pace and competition they would be more like 3:29/3:47, and on today's latest mondo track at somewhere like Monaco, probably half to a second faster.

He couldn't have run 3:26 and 3:43 without the EPO.