shootpost wrote:
I said this comment on a previous thread and got hate for it.
None WON.
Fast time trials, no WINNING.
In my book, Leo Manzano had a better career then all of them.
I guess you should add Jim Ryun to the list of losers. He never won either. Leo had a waaaay better career than Jim.
See how silly that sounds.
dbasarab wrote:
Hall was the most successful at moving to longer distances but not successful enough to beat what Ritz and Webb did at shorter distances (5k/10k for ritz, 1500 / mile for webb).
Webb did not need to move to longer distances. This was a guy that ran an 800 in high school as fast as Donavan Brazier. What was he doing experimenting with 10Ks? Range is overrated - focus all of your training on your best/most competitive event. I think this lack of consistent focus prevented Webb from achieving more.
I think it's tough to choose between the 3. Webb was the best in the world for only a few months. Ritz's best 2 races were only a few months apart. All of them had short spurts or periods of brilliance and long periods of injuries or inconsistency.
I'll go with Ritz => Webb => Hall
Which of the three earned the most money?
Manzano’s career high was much higher than anything Webb, Hall or Ritz achieved.
Webb most talented. Hall the best runner, as he really did threaten the top guys at the big marathons. Ritz never was going to win, yet his career lasted longest and thus earns the best career designation. Interestingly, his best results also came in a very short window, just after joining Alberto in 2009. (12:56, 59:59 bronze, 27:22 WC 6th.)
Too close to call. It's amazing that all 3 had as much success as they did, since many phenoms do nothing after HS. BTW, if I were rating I would give Webb extra credit for a few solid triathlons at the end of his career.
going with manzano too wrote:
Which of the three earned the most money?
Manzano’s career high was much higher than anything Webb, Hall or Ritz achieved.
Ryan Hall had by far the most successful career. He made far more money than Webb, Ritz, and Manzano combined.
And even if running had not been lucrative for him, Hall had a Stanford diploma to fall back on. Ritz and Manzano went to Colorado and Texas and Webb is a college dropout.
Even Hall's backup plan was more prudent.
Phil Fondacaro wrote:
going with manzano too wrote:
Which of the three earned the most money?
Manzano’s career high was much higher than anything Webb, Hall or Ritz achieved.
Ryan Hall had by far the most successful career. He made far more money than Webb, Ritz, and Manzano combined.
And even if running had not been lucrative for him, Hall had a Stanford diploma to fall back on. Ritz and Manzano went to Colorado and Texas and Webb is a college dropout.
Even Hall's backup plan was more prudent.
What is Hall doing with his Stanford degree?
Webb may have been a college dropout, but he became a diesel mechanic. Those guys make bank!
You left out "who was the least overrated in his career." Ritz would win that one by a landslide. He was never anywhere near the best in the world, but was close to the best in the U.S. for a long time. Hall had a very limited period when he was close to the best in the world and spent a massive amount of time under performing, as did Webb., who really only had a couple of good years after HS. Webb's HSR was always overrated. To make it even remotely comparable with what Ryun did -- (beat the previous year's Olympic champion/wolrd record holder (not sure abut the latter -- Jazy may have broken Snell's mile record by that point)-- and come within 1-2 seconds of the world record), he would have had to win that race and run mid 3:40s. And sorry, but he was never -- at any point in his career -- the best in the world. Winning the American championship and one Diamond League race doesn't do that. His AR mile and sub-1:44 800 that year came in completely meaningless races in the middle of nowhere with no competition to speak of -- they were essentially time trials. But you had it right on range: sub-1:44 at 800 and 27:30-something for 10,000 is great. And if you considered talent, he'd probably have it there as well. It was his head the failed him, not his legs.
Ok I'm going with Webb, with Hall a close second and Ritz a distant third.
Here's why:
There was an extended period of time where I could get excited every time Webb raced that he might actually beat the best in the world and win. He won the Pre Classic and Ostrava in 2004 and had a couple of other good results. He had several podium finishes in diamond league meets in 2005 (or whatever they were called then) and he was vying for the lead in the 2005 world championships until he ran that crazy tactic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abxUL7zz1nI
. And his 2007 campaign was even better, actually winning several diamond league races and running his mile PR. His career was short but burned brightly.
I got that feeling for Hall for a little while after his super-fast Boston, but he never ran a comparable time again or even podiumed in a world marathon major. And he finished 4th in Boston that year so there *might* have been a dozen guys in the world who could have beaten him on the day if they'd run Boston instead of London, etc. Although Webb was racing more frequently, he was also for sure facing the best in the world (and occasionally winning).
Ritz never had that. When he ran his 12:55 it showed promise, but that promise was never realized. I felt similarly about his 60 minute half marathon. A fast time but a couple dozen Africans are capable of it in any given year, and most of them weren't in that race.
rydathal ritzwebbhall wrote:
Another vote for Manzano.
Not to mention Lagat and Chelimo.
Manzano stopped being comparable to any american when he waved a mexican flag for that medal. It'd be like Alliphine waving a kenyan flag after winning the US trials- but way way worse. no respect
broscience_the_real_1 wrote:
Webb most talented. Hall the best runner, as he really did threaten the top guys at the big marathons. Ritz never was going to win, yet his career lasted longest and thus earns the best career designation. Interestingly, his best results also came in a very short window, just after joining Alberto in 2009. (12:56, 59:59 bronze, 27:22 WC 6th.)
This is the right answer.
David S wrote:
Ok I'm going with Webb, with Hall a close second and Ritz a distant third.
Here's why:
There was an extended period of time where I could get excited every time Webb raced that he might actually beat the best in the world and win.
I thought about that, but that doesn't mean Webb was better, just that people thought he might be better.
Hall's career was unlucky, if he ran the times he ran a few years earlier, he would have contended for a medal or won a major marathon.
Webb was one of the greatest choke artists in the history of anything. Ritz was one of the greatest DNF artists in the history of anything. Ryan Hall sometimes ran to his potential in big races. Hall wins. I love Ritz and Webb though.
Manzano was better than all 3 and it's not even close. He just had a calm, quiet personality and wasn't very quotable.
I don't know how Manzano got in to the discussion. I'm a fan. Met him. He was gracious and kind.
Apparently his best world ranking at 1500 was 167th? That's what it says on IAAF website. That can't be right, right?
SuicidePace wrote:
Hall has the 59:43AR and only sub 2:05 by an American (even though it doesn't count). He ran that half at 24/25 years old and he had me convinced he would be challenging at the the world level for years to come.. Nope. I have no idea of his mental makeup or if he even enjoyed running, but for me he had an incredible gift and just quit. So not a fan of him at this point.
He didn't just quit. The dude tried for 2 years but sucked. In 2014, he ran 2:17:50 in Boston. In the fall, he was 10th in the Pittsburgh 10 mile - running just 50:25. IN 2015, he was running over 64 minutes in the half so he retired at the start of 2016.
Like Alberto, he was FRIED. You want him to keep beating his head against the wall with low T for 5 years - why?
Please tell me what Ritz has done since 2015 other than make a lot of money. Ritz has been competing since then but doing nothing of consequence.
Here is Ritz since Hall retired.
2016 -got us excited with 60:12 at GNR, DNFs NY.
2017 - No marathon finishes just 62:49 half SB.
2018 - no marathon finishes, just 62:42 half pb .
2019 - 61:24(gets us a little excited again) half but only 2:16 at Boston.
2020 DNF at Trials
PIease Stop wrote:
shootpost wrote:
I said this comment on a previous thread and got hate for it.
None WON.
Fast time trials, no WINNING.
In my book, Leo Manzano had a better career then all of them.
I guess you should add Jim Ryun to the list of losers. He never won either. Leo had a waaaay better career than Jim.
See how silly that sounds.
It only sounds silly because you've totally misrepresented the point shootpost is making.
Ryun has as many Olympic medals as Manzano. How many world records did Manzano set? How many times was he ranked no. 1 in the world?
Absolutely moronic post.
I think there are a few dimensions on the best “career”
1. Quality: Ritz was always injured. Stress fractures, achilles problems/surgery. His career involved lots of unenjoyable suffering and tedious cross training (I would have hated doing all those ~years of aqua jogging).
2. Posterity: Webb will remain a legend b/c of his high school mile and AR mile records. Ritz and Hall will fade out of memory, except to hardcore fans of the sport and people of that generation.
3. money: Webb got paid ~big bucks as soon as he dropped out and went pro. Seemed like Hall was making big $$ during the middle part of his marathon career (I remember him being in car ads/commercials). I’d be surprised if ritz was making too much money.
It's hard to really want to love Hall seeing how his career unfolded. The self coaching bit and current InstaChad status both make you shake your head. Why Sarah would let him coach her is certainly questionable.
Webb needed a Salazar / Rupp long term approach. Someone to hold the reins to prevent overtraining.
Ritz is the only one who ran to his potential. When the field lacks any real international accoladess, that makes him the favorable choice.
Ps- LEO ROCKS
Here are the real variables.
1) Does Hall's 2:04:58 really count with wind aid?
1a) Even if it counts, he still lost the race by over a minute to someone who ran 2:03:02. In a 26.2 mile race that's not like losing a 5k by that much, but it's still only being in contention for "part" of the race, which on the track, Webb and Ritz have been in contention many times.
2a) Look at how marathon times have dropped since then, though, technology has improved for road running so I do think it's fair to compare Hall to his peers instead of the current runners.
2) Is the half marathon an end itself internationally, or sort of a training event for the marathon? Do the world's best do their best in the half marathon? if you take that position, I think you unseat Webb, because the bronze by Ritz and the 59:43 by Hall.
3) Is the Mile an important race outside of the anglosphere? Most care more about the 1500.
But I went with Webb, for reasons I described in the previous post. Importantly my stance on the half marathon is that it's a less important race.
Hall had a very solid 5 year stretch, from early 2007 to early 2012 where he frequently ran well and occasionally ran spectacularly well. A legit 2:06, a not-so legit 2:04, and a few 2:08s thrown in the mix, not to mention his absolutely incredible performance in the half, and at the 07 OTM. No, he never won an Olympic medal or World Marathon Major, but I don't think it was fair to expect those things from him...was never really within his reach. It was sad to see him keep going while his body broke down, but he was tough and hung in there even when it wasn't going well.
I absolutely love Ritz, and can't imagine how his career lasted this long with so many injuries. But he spent 14 years trying to be a marathoner, and he ran only 1 really good marathon in that time. All his other marathons were so-so or ultimately disappointing. He consistently ran well at 1/2 marathon, 10k, and cross-country, and I never understood why he couldn't just stick with that.
Webb...It's just hard to find many positives. He ran poorly almost without exception from 2008-2014 when he should have been in his prime...that's 7 whole seasons. Yes, there was a brief resurgence under Salazar, but whatever. Even before 2007, he had just as many bad seasons as good ones. Had some range, but only 1 good 800, 1 good 2 mile, 1 good 5k, and 1 good 10k to his record.
I think Hall had the best sustained stretch of good running, but will give the edge to Ritz if we are considering total accomplishments including high school, college, and professional levels at a variety of distances.