Not telling the kids to put their shirts on during practice was the final straw.
Not telling the kids to put their shirts on during practice was the final straw.
Boy, I'd sure like to see the contact info for the AD & his boss posted on LR. This issue needs to be brought to the press and the AD needs a good public shaming. Total BS. Let's let em' know how organized runners can be.
more craziness at the high schools. seriously?? firing someone because some of his athletes take their shirts off while running in the heat? would he have gotten fired earlier if the team had a beach day? you get tinhorn dictators and this stuff happens. hs administrators are prone to this kind of thing.
A real big shame when a team loses their coach in season. AD sounds like he is on a power trip.
This isn't the first time I've heard of HS's banning shirtless running. The issue usually is from some staff, parent, or administrator seeing shirtless guys running and then complaining "Why can guys run without shirts but not girls?" Or even worse some prude/pervert who sees the girls team running in sports bras and complains that all athletes male/female should have shirts on.
If shirts on was the policy this HS choose to adopt he should have expected to be fired. His boss (AD) seems to have had multiple instances of this team not following the policy. That's going to come down on the coach eventually. I don't agree with the policy but he has to uphold the policy if he wants to stay employeed.
Crappy situation and crappy policy.
Is the swim team at this HS allowed to go shirtless?
Maybe those Nashua South-Biship Guerten t-shirts that got two kids kicked off a team in NH can be sent down to Mass. Problem solved for both schools. Just rehire this coach and place those two NH boys back on their team! Ridiculous ADs!
I've heard this story through some people in that town so it's hearsay but from what I heard it was pretty explicit that the boys were to wear shirts. This apparently was not followed many times and even flaunted to the point where boys cut shirts in half so they basically only covered their shoulders, so that they could say they were still running with shirts on. Whether you like the rule or not it falls on the coach to make sure it's enforced. If it has to be addressed multiple times and is not followed and also as I was told basically mocked, well then this is the expected result.
Further from what I heard inappropriate language was used by the coach towered school admins on the track in front of students. The coach helped write an article on this site about Alan Webb reacting in a similar manner. Webb is an elite athlete and that article railed against similar behavior and how it sets the wrong example. Apparently the level of decorum expexted by he authors of that article was not followed here.
End of he day from what I heard he is a talented coach but shot himself in the foot on this issue and it cost him. He should worry less about lawyers and more on growing from the experience and becoming a better leader to young men.
Dude sounds like a ballin azz coach. Whats his secret?
I went to Westwood High School but graduated a few years before Tom got there. All my experiences with Tom have been negative. I went to practice about a year ago to talk to my coach who was still helping out with the sprinters. My coach wasn't at practice that day so I ended up talking to Tom. He spent the whole conversation bashing my coach who I obviously liked and had gone out of my way to visit. Tom also refused to let the current team run in the annual alumni XC race saying that it didn't fit into his plan (the race was the day before thanksgiving after their season was over). So, he may be a great coach, but based on my experiences with him he is arrogant, cocky, rude, and has no respect for those who came before him. That being said, I'm not very fond of the Fogel either. This seems to come down to two people with big egos clashing. And when one is the boss of the other, he will get his way. It's a shame for the athletes though.
Yup, I've heard lot's of stuff about Tom and his big ego and big mouth. There might be more to this story than meets the eye.
Yup and I'm sure if the football players walked around with no shirts on, it wouldn;t be a big deal at all.
Forcing high school guys to run with shirts is one of the dumbest rules in existence. There is absolutely no legitimate point to it.
As I don't know either Tom or the AD, here's how an outsider sees this based on the very limited information I have.
1) Apparently there was an issue with running with no shirts. Seems weird, but whatever.
2) According to the story, Tom DID tell the kids not to go shirtless. At least one kid did NOT comply.
3) In my opinion, the AD SHOULD have gone up to Tom in that final situation and let the disciplining to Tom or at least let Tom be the one who told the kid to go see the Principal and the AD, from whom he would then get the disciplining. For the AD to immediately intervene like that in a situation that wasn't causing anyone any immediate harm was not right.
4) If the article is correct, and Tom told the AD, "Karl, his workout is almost over, he’s not technically running shirtless" on that I will disagree. If the workout is ALMOST over, then it AIN'T over. Also, I'm sure the rule is shirts on during practice, NOT just when they are technically running.
5) REALLY bad professionalism for the AD to get into a shouting match with a coach in front of athletes. If he was going to fire him, he should have called him into his office and done it there.
So, in summary, weird rule to begin with (assuming they are all boys of course), Tom was incorrect in describing the kid as technically not running shirtless, and the AD appears to have overreacted and didn't respond as he should have. I see no clear cut bad guy in this situation (though it is certainly possible that one or both actors here have big egos that got in the way). In my opinion, Tom should get his job back, the AD should agree to handle personnel matters behind close doors, and the kid who took his shirt off should get some sort of detention or something (nothing too severe, but bad enough to be a deterrent) to make it clear that this is the rule and it has to be followed.
Wait a minute - a teacher/administrator can hit a student and still be employed working with kids?
That is just totally unbelievable.
It seems to me that there are two legitimate routes to firing a coach for conduct issues.
Route A: Coach does something that any reasonable person should know would get them fired (e.g., hitting an athlete).
Route B: Coach is warned, preferably in writing, that "if X happens, your job will be in jeopardy," and then X happens.
So if this was about runners going shirtless, then to me a key question is whether the coach was warned that this could cost him his job if it continued.
Note: We've changed the title of this thread. Obviously I'm biased on this one as Tom used to live in my house and is a great friend of mine. But Tom isn't an employee of letsrun.com although he does occasionally help cover events for us as we don't want to be drawn into any lawsuits.
It's my personal opinion, and not that of letsrun.com's, that this is a case where Tom did nothing wrong and the AD is simply out of control. Tom tried to prevent a physical altercation between the AD and one of his athletes and ends up getting fired. In my mind, the AD should be the one to go. Published reports indicate the AD struck a student two years ago (a track athlete but Tom wasn't coaching then). I know that sounds not believable but here is the article on that so the belief that a physical altercation might occur was real:
We are in the process of trying to help Tom find a good lawyer in MA. If you are interested in helping a great guy out, please email me ASAP at
PS. What Tom had done as a coach at that school is simply unreal.
In first year of track, the school won the league title for the first time in 15 years. In his first xc season, they made the All-State meet for the first time in the 50+ years of the school. His best accomplishment probably came in the 4 x 800 this year - his second year. When he came in, the best 800 guy was a 2:11 and the next best was 2:27, and there were no sub-5 milers on the team. This year, they set MA State meet record – 7:57 - and would have possibly gotten the New England record had they not fallen at nationals.
To me, the key question here is whether Coach Davis was warned that his job would be at risk if any kids were spotting running shirtless.
These days, if you want to fire someone for conduct, it usually takes either them doing something egregious (like a coach punching a kid) OR you have to have warned them in advance, preferably in writing, that "if X happens your job is in jeopardy."
Wasn't there a thread about this a few months ago? Was it this coach posting?
I don't care if the coach is the biggest d-bag on the planet, there is no way the AD is right. Every high school male runner runs shirtless. We used to play shirts and skins in basketball practice and soccer practice, too. This AD is an idiot, and firing a successful coach over this is ridiculous.
Note: We also removed the contact info that was given for the high school we dont think people contacting the high school is necessarily the right thing to do although clearly everyone legally can do as they please.
We also are removing any posts referencing Alan Webb as Tom's reporting on Webb has nothing to do with this thread.