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5k trainee
RE: why do Jack Daniels M pace workouts destroy me?

Smoove wrote:

The fact that people believe that Daniels wants to lock you into a specific pace on every single run is the single most frustrating thing for me on these boards. It bothers me more than the average poster's inability to conjugate the verb run in all tenses.

[quote]scorpion_runner wrote:

[quote]FastJogger wrote:

Doing the 40-50mpw 5k-10k plan. At the end of Phase 2. Been here twice before. Usually lose interest around the end of Phase 3 due to weather, other distances and activities.

I can finish my M workouts just fine. I finish them feeling like I could go a bit harder, and further. I’ve learned to hit the times, and no more. The problem is the aftermath. Completely wrecked. Sore where I’m usually not. Tired to the point of feeling drugged. Can barely knock out a 3 mile easy run the next day.

I have a very honest vdot. I can hit my times through R, T and I workouts (at less than ~65F). I’ve averaged 30mpw for ~3 years, with the occasional 40-50 mile week thrown in there. I do lots of 1-2 hour hard runs on trails with 1000-3000ft of vertical. I’ve been at 35-45mpw for the past 3 months (the 35 mile weeks usually involve some loose, rocky, 10-15% grades so I’m power hiking). I usually run 4-7 times a week. I do my easy runs at a pace that ensures I’ll be able to hit my next Q workout’s times. That is usually on the fast side of the suggested easy pace. I do the easy runs without a watch – just go by feel. I make sure to have 2-3 very easy days before my M workouts, as I’m so afraid of them.

Is this common? Does this indicate something? Should I tweak my workouts? Just not sure what it means.

A few notes on other paces:
T pace - easy for me. I can easily run two vdots faster and feel good after – but it might impact the workout two days later.
R pace (track) - could maybe go a vdot faster, if I had two easy days before and it was nice and cool.
I pace - just hold on for dear life!

I do all of these at such a pace that I can do a decent 3-8 mile easy run the next day. Except for M pace stuff.

Any thoughts or insights would be greatly appreciated.


Why do you guys take his book so literal, when he stated that those numbers and phases are recommendations?

If you find the pace or workout to be extreme, then reduce the pace or the workouts. If the recommended M pace is too fast, just reduce the pace to a more comfortable pace. You will reap the same benefits without the burnout.

Every week there is post about Jack Daniel's paces being too aggressive or to passive.....just adjust to what you are comfortable with.[/quote][/quote]

After I cycled off his 5k/10k plan, it was enough for me to understand what certain paces feel like. When I first started with that plan I was just lile the OP and religiously followed every pace and every interval regardless of how good or bad I felt. By the late phase3 early phase4 I finally got the sense of awareness about how I should be feeling more than what some number said I should be running in sync with my gps watch. Today I still use the book and will begin a new cycle in a few months, but this time with more sense of awareness off effort. Still learning. When you first get the book the opening sentence should be not to take everything literally, that could help a lot of people. It's not until you start feeling burnt out or overly fatigued is when you start questioning the plan on these message boards only to find out it's a skeleton plan and you put the meat on it where applicable.

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