Are you stiff as hell? That's a good thing for running and may explain why Kipchoge is so damn good at the marathon

I used to do that exercise quite a bit, just for the heck of it. Now seeing Geoffery Kamworor do it, I should have done it much more!

SteelTownRunner wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_wPMClDRal/

dunes runner wrote:

I used to do that exercise quite a bit, just for the heck of it.

Now seeing Geoffery Kamworor do it, I should have done it much more!

SteelTownRunner wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_wPMClDRal/

Doesn't it seem that the audio doesn't quite match up with the visual in that video clip? Is it possible that Geoffrey Kamworor is the Milli Vanilli of distance running?

This is Jim Kiler wrote:

Kipchoge is "approaching" 40? Okay.

You're right, he's actually heading away from 40 and approaching 30 instead.

Muscle stiffness in the OPs context is not about whether you can touch your toes, it's about how it relates to Rate of Force Development is all explained in the link below. Cam Levins has astoundingly high numbers,comparable to a high flying basketball players, and....elite East Africans runners.

http://californiasportsinstitute.com/high-performance-sports-training-a-behind-the-scenes-look-into-the-science-driven-process-with-cam-levins/

Here's the crux of the matter if you won't read the link:

"...the way his [Levins] muscles produce/reduce force to handle impact, and in his reactivity index – basically his ability to switch from foot contact-to-foot flight. The numbers Cam produced were astounding for a distance runner and were more along the lines of the numbers my high-flying ‘3’ position basketball guys produce or my pro defensive backs produce…I have to admit I was quite taken aback at that as that was the last thing I would expect of a distance guy. With a little investigation I was able to find that certain elite-class Ethiopian and Kenyan distance runners have produced comparable numbers in force-plate testing and thereby comparison, we have a bit of a look into perhaps part of the reasons why Cam, neurologically speaking is so successful a runner..."

He's the greatest marathoner of all time because he's a once in a lifetime talent, who has trained his entire career on EPO, and has the best shoes ever made.

You must've been one hell of a coach!

SteelTownRunner wrote:

LetsRun.com wrote:

Using the contents of some tweets from Trent Stellingwerff and Steve Magness, Canadian Running has an interesting article on how stiffness leads to better running economy. Scientific studies have shown that stiff runners have better economy and the older you get the stiffer you get so that may be why Kipchoge is so good approaching 40.

https://twitter.com/TStellingwerff/status/1254139281225838592https://runningmagazine.ca/sections/training/poor-sit-and-reach-results-can-mean-better-running-economy/

Perhaps, but an average stiff distance runner (say, recreational or club runner) can't do drills like this, and I think an average elite distance runner can. So, flexibility is all relative.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_wPMClDRal/

This drill proves NOTHING about flexibility. It takes about as much flexibility to do this as it takes to pump out a stubburn turd on the crapper!

I think this idea is at least 30 years old? At least I first heard about around 30 years ago. maybe now there is more support for it?....... there is a reason that faster bikes have more rigid frames

BUTTHOLE SURFER wrote:

I think the key thing to remember is not to "Over Stretch". Light stretching including some range of motion specific to your sport is crucial. It's not about being able to touch your toes (not a bad thing) but more so of opening up the muscles, tendons, and ligaments to allow for more blood flow thus eliminating lactic acid and waste. Having a bit of tension/stiffness is ok but not to the point of restricting range of motion and limiting blood flow.

FYI-

I'm no doctor but am enjoying 40 years of running (20+ competing) and am 99% injury-free.

Go Run One!

Just like a suspension bridge requires the right amount of tension. Not enough tension and the bridge won't hold itself up. Too much tension and the cables will snap.

Touching your toes isn't bad as long as you're not straining to do so.

LetsRun.com wrote:

Using the contents of some tweets from Trent Stellingwerff and Steve Magness, Canadian Running has an interesting article on how stiffness leads to better running economy. Scientific studies have shown that stiff runners have better economy and the older you get the stiffer you get so that may be why Kipchoge is so good approaching 40.

Stekkungwerff saus:

“As you get older, your tendons get stiffer, I think this is partly why we’re seeing masters marathoners run so quickly. Think of Malindi Elmore, or even Eliud Kipchoge. They’re getting older but their running economy is getting better and they’re running faster.”

https://twitter.com/TStellingwerff/status/1254139281225838592https://runningmagazine.ca/sections/training/poor-sit-and-reach-results-can-mean-better-running-economy/

The topics of these two links have little to do with each other. Stiffness of tendons relates to the spring-constant of the tendon (how much force per cross-sectional area it takes to strength it). This has relationship with range of motion and flexibility largely has to do with muscles not tendons.

*stretch it

RyecorDone wrote:

Wrong. The older you get, the more tendon compliance, making you less efficient!

However, other studies have shown that old people can regain tendon stiffness with high intensity resistance training, but not low intensity training.

Overall leg stiffness isn't the same as tendon stiffness.

Muscles store elastic energy poorly compared to tendons; muscles that are too compliant waste energy to resist change in length. Tendons do not.

Dingler wrote:

Are we sure this is stiffness and not length of legs relative to upper torso and arms? In many other places this ratio has been discussed as a factor in running success, and would certainly affect how easy it is to touch your toes.

Michael Phelps is 5-6 inches taller than me but I have a longer inseam. My legs are longer than his. Great swimmers have long torsos and short legs. This was in The Sports Gene book. Great runners have long legs and that beautiful leg snap where they almost kick their own butt.

I ran my best 400m and 800m on hot humid days, where I felt more loose and warmed up. This happened on high school and college track. I’m notoriously stiff and have crazy tight hamstrings and that might be good for running marathons but causes injuries, gait adjustments, and difficulty recovering from long runs and hard workouts.

ExerPhys wrote:

RyecorDone wrote:

Wrong. The older you get, the more tendon compliance, making you less efficient!

However, other studies have shown that old people can regain tendon stiffness with high intensity resistance training, but not low intensity training.

Overall leg stiffness isn't the same as tendon stiffness.

Muscles store elastic energy poorly compared to tendons; muscles that are too compliant waste energy to resist change in length. Tendons do not.

Got a citation to back up your statement? Seems to me that tendons that stretch just when you want them to transfer torque to the ankle would be ineffective. How can you claim that a compliant tendon somehow helps a muscle either brace an ankle (at stance phase), or extend your foot (at pushoff)? You speak of wasted energy via muscle contraction (stance phase?), which would indeed waste energy. Likeways, some compliance of the achilles allows a 'stretching of a spring' effect, which would assist the muscles during the pushoff. You are right, if that's the way you see it. My only admittedly naive bias is that if the tendons are too compliant, you won't deliver that recoil energy in time, or in sufficient magnitude, to help you run fast. It all depends on how fast you are trying to run. But the initial discussion was about Kipchoge's speed. At his speed, any delay in muscle force transfer, or delivery of recoil energy, would slow him down. With slower runners, perhaps a slower, weaker, recoil energy return would be timed just right for optimal power.

I make no claim about "overall leg stiffness", so I'm assuming you were referring to others' confusion in that regard. There is a prevalent mental image of a creaky arthritic old person with severely limited range of motion and muscular imbalances, and the old asumption that old people have stiff ossified tendons and ligaments- whereas, the studies I have read all say that old people have more compliant - stretchier- tendons. I was surprised to find that too. But it rationalizes my slow 73 year old running speed. My 'rubber bands' are robbing my muscular contractions of their efficacy.

Flexibility at least as it relates to "range of motion" is definitely context- and activity-specific. It relates to the nervous system's defense against stretching more than it relates to an actual quality of the tissue - your muscles have small sensors inside them that communicate with the central nervous system how much a tissue is being stretched, and your brain basically tells it to shut off stretching once you get to a certain point by contracting the muscle.

Stiffness, I guess, can be thought of in two ways. The way most people use it relates to a lack of flexibility, but stiffness as measured in the clinic by passive stretching may not be the same kind of loss of range of motion when someone is running. Activity can actually change your degree of defensiveness to stretch, so you might be able to achieve a range of motion while running that you could not while a doctor or therapist or researcher cranks on your hamstring. To me if a study is measuring flexibility as a function of range of motion, it probably has little relevance to runners.

Stiffness or elasticity as a science-y term is mostly about the degree to which something deforms when force is applied to it - this is PROBABLY more important for sprinters who deal with very high forces with each ground contact, but still matters for distance runners. Stiffer (more elastic) tissues are more energy-efficient, wasting less energy in tissue deformation and allowing that to return to the ground.

A good example of why flexibility is mostly mediated by the brain is when you do exams under anesthesia, where you try to take out conscious mediation of stretch by knocking out the patient - you can range folks without joint contractures MUCH further once the brain is zonked out :) Plenty of "inflexible" people become Gumby.

So he is doing this to slow down!

https://youtu.be/h94CJK-Ywb4

gall, how do you recommend increasing elasticity/stiffness?

Do you think Shannon Rowbury doing yoga and being quite flexible would have eroded at least some of her elasticity? At what point does flexibility necessarily reduce elasticity?

I'm stiff as hell but only in the morning. ;)

Great point! Never heard that someone would be more flexible under anesthesia! I thought the golgi organ protection is a reflex phenomenon - taking place at the basal ganglion level, and not in the brain.