Was Deena Kastor clean?

A thoughtful response that includes a good counter-argument. You expressed my feelings about the EPO era better than I did. Thank you.

Regarding Jordan Hasay, I assume she was wearing the Vaporflys when she ran her fast marathons. If she responds well to the shoes, that might be worth a couple of minutes. Also she seems (seemed?) to be unusually well-suited to the marathon, which would explain the discrepancy between her excellent marathon performances and her relatively mediocre track times. Finally, while it is clear that today's elite runners aren't using EPO to the extent that their elite counterparts did 15 years ago, that doesn't mean that current runners are clean. Hasay's former coach has been banned from the sport from PED-related offenses. Many here strongly suspect Mo Farah used PEDs based on his abrupt improvement in performance in his mid to late 20s and his ties to Jama Aden--ties he tried to conceal. If Farah used PEDs, it seems naive to assume he was the only one in the Salazar training group who did so.

colorunner123 wrote:

If you want to argue that Kastor wasn't that good, that's your prerogative. Here are the T&FN world rankings in 2005 and 2006:

At least two of the runners ranked behind Kastor -- Chepkemei and Jeptoo -- were subsequently busted for PED use. Not EPO in Chepkemei's case but (in response to your question) we know definitively at least two female marathon runners were using PEDs. There are other runners on those lists who come from countries known for widespread PED use in that era.

Let's not forget that Kastor also excelled in the 10,000 meters. Even if one believes EPO was not widely used in the marathon, it presumably was widely used among those who performed well in the 10,000 meters in that era.

You need to decide what it is you are arguing.

You did not say "she was good" and I did not and do not want to argue that she wasn't good.

You said "rampant" and "spectacular times", and that we would have the burden to explain how it came to be that she is probably the only clean runner, as if you have established that most of the others were dirty.

Before attempting to answer claims you take for granted as reasonable, it is fair to ask:

Was EPO rampant in the marathon? Is a time 4 minutes slower than the world record considered "spectacular"? Would she be the rare exception among top-ranked females in the marathon? Is it difficult for a clean runner to beat Epogen-using elite runners in the marathon? Is association with the era alone sufficient reason to be suspicious?

colorunner123 wrote:

Let's not forget that Kastor also excelled in the 10,000 meters. Even if one believes EPO was not widely used in the marathon, it presumably was widely used among those who performed well in the 10,000 meters in that era.

This is also factored into the Sunday Times metric.

Although at first it seems tightly tied to the marathon medals, the metric they used was "suspicious value" in the database, a database that spanned 12 years. The metric for athlete suspicion was not tightly linked to the marathon event when the medal was won.

The Sunday Times reported 1 out of 9 medals were won by athletes who possessed at least one suspicious value in a database spanning 2001-2012.

Had they limited suspicion to the timeframe of the marathon medal win, that ratio would shrink even further.

That metric is actually not a bad metric, noting that it overall included 15% of the athletes, while the blood dopers of that area were about 18% (minimal estimate in Saugy's 2011 paper). So, it's only slightly too low.

Both colorunner123 and you have a point though; the marathon (11% suspect) is less suspect than the 10,000 m (28%), for whatever reason.

How clean is the marathon? Hmmmm, here's rjm's top-11 list from a couple of years ago:

And now we can add the current Olympic Champ Sumgong, among others, to that list.

This argument is so dumb. We go after Rupp and many other Americans with the same tenacity.

Was? I'm pretty sure she was clean and still is.

As far as I know, she had access to clean water for bathing/showering and soap on a regular basis.

Deena was not 100% clean no. Very few runners are

Deena is from So Cal and still lives in So Cal where the leading PED Detection labs is located at UCLA. So Cal has the most dense working USADA detection force agents in the USA, and has the most Olympic stars, and us where the mist pro sports athletes were born and raised and resides. It's not likely any doper could survive long living in So Cal. Dopers better stay away.

OP. when you post "she was active in the EPO era" - that is absolutely not evidence of any one person cheating.

Again, this is an athlete who had always been among the best of her (and any) era from early in her career (5 California state titles in high school)- including in college when she was drug tested (8 time All American) - and who ran 4 minutes slower than what is now the world record. When you look at her PRs, they are in line with a good, but not great, Division III male runner, which historically is pretty much par for the course with the top women of an era.

This is just a really tacky and irresponsible thread.

"rjm's" list should also be updated to reflect a new batch of runners since then. Jeptoo has slipped to #26.

In any case, it should be viewed with more caution, in light of the plausible possibility of false positives, and other "guilt by association" logic, and in light of 89% of Olympic and World Championship medals won by athletes with unsuspicious blood values, at any time.

My respect for the brojos is somewhat limited by the fact that they allow threads like this to exist. As for the OP, I wouldn't let him on my lawn.

I happen to believe that Kastor was clean, but there is absolutely nothing wrong or irresponsible about the thread created by the OP. Nobody in this sport should be beyond suspicion and valid questions and answers have been raised.

I doubt it. Kastor resides in Los Angeles the technology capitol of the world with the top Drug Detection scientists and active monitors. She would easily get busted in L.A.

I live in what I call a ‘post-hero’ era of sport where I accept the possibility that all elite runners may be cheating; thus, I am never truly surprised when the busts happen.

Smoove wrote:

OP. when you post "she was active in the EPO era" - that is absolutely not evidence of any one person cheating.

Again, this is an athlete who had always been among the best of her (and any) era from early in her career (5 California state titles in high school)- including in college when she was drug tested (8 time All American) - and who ran 4 minutes slower than what is now the world record. When you look at her PRs, they are in line with a good, but not great, Division III male runner, which historically is pretty much par for the course with the top women of an era.

This is just a really tacky and irresponsible thread.

+1

colorunner123 wrote:

I didn't cite zero evidence. I linked to several articles stating that Epo use was rampant in the mid 2000s. As it happens, this was the time period in which Deena was in her prime. How realistic is it to believe that all the top runners except Deena was using Epo? Why are people's minds so closed to even entertaining this possibility?

There were many murders when I lived in New York. I did not die. Ergo, I must be a murderer.

colorunner123 wrote:

A lot of ad hominem attacks.

/

You slandered Kastor and now you are whining about ad hominem attacks?

Just asking questions wrote:

colorunner123 wrote:

I didn't cite zero evidence. I linked to several articles stating that Epo use was rampant in the mid 2000s. As it happens, this was the time period in which Deena was in her prime. How realistic is it to believe that all the top runners except Deena was using Epo? Why are people's minds so closed to even entertaining this possibility?

There were many murders when I lived in New York. I did not die. Ergo, I must be a murderer.

The evidence that Kastor doped is basically the same as the evidence that Komen, Bekele, Gebrselassie, El Guerrouj, etc. doped: They ran very fast and they did so during a time period in which EPO use was very common. I wonder if some of the people who are 100% sure that Komen and El Guerrouj doped are the same people arguing that there's no way in hell that Kastor doped.

Association of fast times with an era is not a strong argument for any of those athletes.

Komen and El Guerrouj did not run fast marathons.

And unlike these world record holders, Deena was not close to setting a world record, by more than 4 minutes.