10-12x400 @ 3k with 30s rest

First, elite runners have done crazy 400m workouts. Mamede was reported to have done 15x400m with 40-50s rest for 55-57s average. Mamede had 47s 400m speed and was measured the highest VO2MAX ever recorded at that time. He was a fast-twitch runner. If he can do that, a slow-twitch runner like Pinto can probably do lots of 400s on short rest in 60s, 3-5s slower than Mamede. Tergat's Italian coach posted a workout of him, 25x400 in 56s with 60s rest at high altitude. Morceli (FT guy, 3:27/7:25/13:03) ran 15x400 in 55-56 with 45s rest in Mexico City. A famous Geb workout was 10x1000 all in sub 2:30 (60s!) with 2 min jog rest at high altitude. I don't think I need to post El Guerrouj 400m workouts, you should get the point by now.

Sure, it sounds weird that Pinto would be able to do 30x400 in 59-60 on 45s rest, but not able to do 12x400 in 58 with 3 min rest.

But you need to realize how close his paces are together.

58s - 1500 pace, mostly anaerobic

60s - 3000 pace, anaerobic/aerobic

62s - 5000 pace, aerobic/anaerobic

65s - 10000 pace - mostly aerobic

So 65s laps are cruising for him, 62s laps would be the speed that coach JS would give him, still not super hard, 60s is hard but managable, but 58s is substantially harder than 60s, especially since he is a ST guy. The average 16-18 min 5k runner has 5-7s difference in 400m speed between their 1500m and 3000m pace, but it's the same as the 2s difference for the elite 13 min runner.

Sure, Cabral over-exaggerated his own ability as runner (he was exposed on these forums), to improve his reputation as coach. He also did not coach the elite runners he is often talking about (Mamede/Lopes, etc) but according to him, he knew about their training and even saw them on the track frequently. He is without a doubt Portuguese, so his insight in the training of the great Portuguese runners may not be underestimated.

Tinman claimed to have run a 15 low 5k in his active running career, can you prove that? Cabral probably was not the only coach who presented himself better than he was, but he displayed a solid amount of running knowledge especially in his conversations/debates with Hadd (who got REAL credentials as elite coach) on these boards ~10 years ago.

If your goal with short rest is to maximize time spent at VO2max, why not use another typical Australian workout - 8 x 400 @ 5k with 200 float? It can feel very difficult (especially if you misjudge 5k pace), but low risk of injury compared to doing 3k pace.

Now I had some time over to comment your comment of how I would have coached Mamede and Lopes.

Firstly, did you know Lopes told in an interview with Runners World that he used the same Gerschler rest as me?Rest back to 120 bpm when running intervals.I remember he told that was a very smart and logical rest because original version of running intervals should be at same pace and same length all of them, and he explained that the more reps you run the pressure on the body increased and therefore the body needed more rest between the reps the more reps you run.This way the runner gets the perfect individual rest after every rep.So when Lopes ran e.g 20 x 400m at 5 k pace the recovery time after every rep differed between about 45-70 sec to get his individual very best pace and rest.

Now to your question of how I had coached the both of them differentiated. Both of them had run 20 x 400m but with different pace and of course their different resttime back to 120 bpm.Mamede should have worked down to 20 x 400m at 60-61 sec controlled and Lopes stayed at 62-63 sec mostly. Then I had just add LT-intervals at about 2:48-2:49 min/ km for Lopes as a start and over time worked it down. Mamede had start with the same LT- pace and also over time worked it down. For the easy runs Lopes had start with 3:25-3:45 min / km and Mamede 3:35-3:45 min/ km This way Mamede had been able to run around the world record of today at 10000m 26.17 and Lopes at least 26: 50 or better. Lopes had this way raced the marathon in at least 2:03:30. Of course it`s easy for me to say I am right in this prediction of their times with me as coach because no one can prove I´m wrong, lol )) But of course I know this is the way my system works and always delivers the expected times.

If I summarize this one can see that the most differentiation of the two quite equal runners in race times before my coaching will happen in given pace at training and the "automatically" recovery time.

- Your Magical Coach - :)

Well one thing we know for sure Mamede never raced up to his potential. His workouts indicated that he could have easily broken 27, but he never raced to the level of his workouts (like the 20x400 in 56-57 with 45s rest). He was often called mentally weak, and lost to Lopes about 80 times in 90 times they raced against each other, even though he had a much higher VO2MAX and 400m speed.

Some coaches argued that Mamede killed himself in training, especially during longer 1k-2k reps which he did at the same pace as Lopes. That fried him as more fast-twitch speed guy. Also, his easy runs were only 30-40 min twice a day, never faster than 4:00/k. Lopes was the other extreme - often easy runs down to 3:05-3:15/k, at his aerobic threshold (MLSS) similar to El Guerrouj. The 1k-2k reps were usually race-pace, down to 3k pace even (2:30-2:40/k) and 5 min standing recovery, at least for Mamede.

Since their time, training has obviously advanced but to set world records and run 27 low, they must have still done something right despite their high talent.

If Mamede did 20 x 400m at 56-57 sec and just 45 sec rest(which I strongly doubt) he should have been able to run a much faster 1500m than what he did ( 3:38 almost) and about 3:30 ( at least) with a 47 sec 400m capacity.And his easy pace was not 4 min/k always. I have read about eyewittnes that told they saw him running much faster than that on easy runs.And at last in this comment I tell you for sure there is no one runner in history that is/was capable to do an easy run at 3:05 - 3:15/ km, then we talk about a tempo run .

His 1500m PR was not indicative of what he could have run. He ran 3:37 when he was a 5000/10000 specialist! This is right in line with what a 10k world record holder usually runs in the 1500m. Obviously he could have been faster with focus on specific 1500m training. Paul Tergat's best 1500 was 3:41!! And he was a 12:49/26:27 guy. Tergat could have also been a lot faster in 1500 with different training, but he didn't care about the distance and not specialize for it.

Mamede had among the best workouts of elite runners. He did 3x3000, all sub 8 minutes with 3 min rest (that's 26:40 pace, btw). And his 15x400 in 55-57s with 40-50s active jog rest was confirmed by multiple people, not just the suspicious Cabral. But it was also said that he often was sleepless the night before races and had anxiety issues, and never performed to the level of his workouts in actual races. Lopes on the other hand was extremely tough mentally and always showed up during races.

The question is, was it really just psychological (Mamede was reported to visit mental doctors to get help with his problem of underperforming) or as it due to his unique muscle fiber setup, with lots of FT. FT athletes are known to have more irregular race performances than their ST counterparts, and can be hit or miss. From setting a 10k WR in a perfect race to hopelessly getting dropped by Lopes, Mamede experienced the whole range of outcomes.

In addition to the Tinman VO2MAX at 3k 400s and JS 5k 400s there are also the Ingebrigtsens who do them around CV/threshold pace (more like 10k-HM pace for elites). I think all 3 are great workouts and have their place but work different things.

Actually, as shown by the Tjelta study, when the ingebrigstens do their shorter reps like 400s, they do them at 5k pace. They probably stay more like a lactate threshold session that way as well as the body is constantly getting to recover unlike on the long 5k reps.

a bit too hard wrote:

I think that workout is a bit too hard, with 60s rest it would be perfect (and a bit more volume would be nice).

Then it would be a different workout no?

OP - I'm not an elite by a long long way but we do 12x400 with 30s rests at our running club often, it's tough at 5k pace for me, very tough at 3k pace.

Problem comes with most amateur runners in judging effort with those 30s rests, nearly everyone goes at at probably 1k pace! then either die a painful death or end up working way way too hard to maintain the session as those very short rests give absolutely no rest-bite.

Legolas wrote:

In addition to the Tinman VO2MAX at 3k 400s and JS 5k 400s there are also the Ingebrigtsens who do them around CV/threshold pace (more like 10k-HM pace for elites). I think all 3 are great workouts and have their place but work different things.

Actually, as shown by the Tjelta study, when the ingebrigstens do their shorter reps like 400s, they do them at 5k pace. They probably stay more like a lactate threshold session that way as well as the body is constantly getting to recover unlike on the long 5k reps.

+ 1 ! Good point !

Great thread and great read.

One of the staple workouts of my training program is to get athletes to the point where they could handle 16-20 x 400m at 3k pace with 30-seconds rest. There is a cumulative adaptation over time to get to this point and, regardless of ability level, most runners through the program can get to that point.

Part of the progression was to begin at 2 x 15 x 200m with 30-sec rest and 5-min between sets. The 200s were more like ~3k pace for the first set and ~1500m lace for the second. Always working on cutting down the last 5-6 to the point where the last few are at about as fast as you can handle.

The next step (only as it pertains to this particular workout and not the “actual” next step) was do move to 23 x 300m at 3k pace with 30-seconds rest. These would start at ~3k and try to cut down the last 6-7 to ~1500m pace and finish the last three by trying to cut down to where the last two are nearly all-out (or literally all-out based on how tough you are).

Personally, I think the 23 x 300m is the most useful. This was a distance that everyone from 1500/3k runners to 5k/10k types could handle. However, there were my pure 10k types (marathon/mudder tbh) that would not do these types of workout and were more geared to e longer, sustainable distances with still utilizing the short rest model.

In 2004, when Briana Shook ran 9:29.32AR steeple, her most recent 20 x 400m (solo effort) began at 74-76 pace and got down to 71-73 for #15-19 Wanting to rest herself she went all-out the #20 and hit 70. Undeterred, and wanting to break 70, she attempted #21, #22 and #23 (maintaining the 30-second rest) in an effort to break 70 and I finally had to call it at #23 with those last all being 70.x

By the time I resigned we had built a small army of women that were 5:0x and 11:0x high school runners into a team that went to 3-straight NCAAs with this as one of the pieces of the puzzle. I do not feel like it was the most important piece of the puzzle. However, it was one piece that was very effective.

Just 2-cents from the cheap seats.

~Kevin

HITHEREYOU wrote:

a bit too hard wrote:

I think that workout is a bit too hard, with 60s rest it would be perfect (and a bit more volume would be nice).

Then it would be a different workout no?

OP - I'm not an elite by a long long way but we do 12x400 with 30s rests at our running club often, it's tough at 5k pace for me, very tough at 3k pace.

Problem comes with most amateur runners in judging effort with those 30s rests, nearly everyone goes at at probably 1k pace! then either die a painful death or end up working way way too hard to maintain the session as those very short rests give absolutely no rest-bite.

This is very true and a common problem with such workouts. When I started running, I also ran all repeats WAY too fast, and would positive split. Then I was dead for a week, and/or injured. The difference between 3k and 5k, and 5k and 10k, is strong but it's not killing. But between Mile pace and 3k, you are going from 100% VO2MAX to 112-115% VO2MAX, so the additional energy needed is anaerobic. 1-2 reps at that pace with 30s rest and the runner is toast. I can tell you that a lot of club runners do such workouts way too fast, they race each other and totally miss the stimulus. They also think harder/faster = better which couldn't be more wrong. Then they get injured or burned out and blame interval training for it and only do easy runs afterwards because "they can't handle intervals".

Good insights, coach. Knowing Tinman, if he prescribes 12x400@3k pace with 30s rest to his elite athletes + 2-3 mile tempo after, it is not the absolute maximum they could do. So if only doing 400s @3k, your range of 16-20 is realistic. I think that 400/800, and some 800/1500 guys will struggle more with this workout than the 3k/5k specialists. The pure 10k+ guys should also be able to handle the workout (because their 3k pace won't be very strong), but for them it's not a great workout, especially for marathoners time spent at VO2MAX should be limited and far away from the key competition, there are more important/specific workouts to do.

The question always is, what is the point of the workouts and how hard do you want it to be? If you want to use it as peaking workout, like for example "the Michigan", then progressing to mile pace and last 1-2 all out is fine. But you should use them sparingly, and make sure that there are plenty of easy days afterwards to recover from such an effort.

Yes, a good thread.

According to what I before has told about maxVO2intervals , and that it`s only necessary to run

5 k pace to get the same desired stimulus as 3 k pace , I will not recommend this kind of" forced" cumalative adaptation over time.When a runner by this method has reached his/her 3 k pace at 16-20 x 400m with 30 sec rest , the runner who started with 5 k pace (and individual "automatic" rest) will approach a level where his/her 5 k pace is the same as the other runner`s 3 k pace.at 16-20 x 400m.The old common expression applies here; "Train , don`t strain! "

VIP seats for free! ))

I found a study that showed the same thing you are saying. That for improving 5k time, running at 95% VO2MAX (5k pace) was as effective as running at 100% VO2MAX (3k pace).

BUT - the same study also found out, that for improving 1500m times, the 100% VO2MAX (3k pace) intervals were more effective and worked better than the 5k!

So if you prescribe your 1500m runners the same as your 5000m runners (20x400 @5k), they probably don't benefit the same way. Sure, the 5k pace 400s still make them faster, but not as fast as the 3k ones! At least that's what the research paper has shown.

Yes, you found a study that shows 3k pace and 5 k pace have hardly worth mentioning difference when it comes to maxVO2 intervals efficiency when it comes to improving 5 k time . But if you think what happens if you gradually can improve your 5 k race pace to be the same as your former 3 k pace I think you realize the big lift.Both Daniels and Bideau advocates 5 k pace for maxVO2 intervals. This with anaerobic strength through 5 k race pace is the basic key when it comes to all distances from 800m and up to marathon . 3 k pace is only need for when preparing for a 3 k race. So most of the time you can just ignore 3 k pace and instead go for 800m -1500m race pace and faster as a complement to race your optimum 800/ 1500/ mile race.And added to all this you have the very important LT -pace not to forget.I finish this comment by saying if a runner can run 20 x 400m at 60-61 sec with about 60 sec rest and controlled with almost no pushing , that runner can theoretically and in practice run world record times at 800m up to marathon if coached correctly.

One important caveat to my previous post, as it relates to my own training system, is that I only use 3k pace because it is the closest to a race distance we can relate to. In reality, we did these types of workouts at 2k pace. As I mentioned, this is just one workout (or progression of workouts) so it is only a snapshot of a series of workouts and lifestyle that makes a movie.

So, in order for me to know “exactly” what their actual VO2max pace is, we periodically run a race-like, all-out effort over an 1800m loop. We called that “Swan Loop” and the all-our Swan was done to test ourselves in an environment where there is no fear of failure.there is way more to it than this, but this is the Reader’s Digest version.

Everyone that ran for me knew their Swan time. The goal is to continue to improve your Swan Loop PR over the course of a season and the course of a year and the course of their career. It’s based off the layman’s VO2max test of 6:00 all-out.

Like I said, way more to it than all this. However, just wanted to be clear that when we were training, regardless of the workout and the goals of the workout, I can always give a fairly accurate time range because I basically always knew exactly what everyone’s VO2max pace was.

Giving 3k as the pace was done more out of convenience because it was easy to understand. However, in reality, we were trying to train at 2k pace.

Many ways to skin a cat. My program worked for me and for Toledo (and Coastal). These workouts are a small snapshot but are what I consider to be essential over the course of the segments and seasons (and careers).

From the back of the room.

~Kevin

I'd be interested in hearing more about your training Kevin... Do you have other resources available like threads on LRC or ??

KH training wrote:

I'd be interested in hearing more about your training Kevin... Do you have other resources available like threads on LRC or ??

Not really. But I’m always down to talk training. It’s a unique system. I wasn’t a distance runner so I didn’t have a preconceived idea about what worked or didn’t work. Developed over time and used a lot of different ideas from a lot of great coaches and developed a different and unique system.

Sadly, most threads have to do with my dumba$$ decisions that led to my demise. If you’re interested in talking training, I’m at

Be great,

~Kevin

Full recovery rest down to 120bpm was not "invented" by anyone. It's been used forever.

If "prescribed" paces would be sufficient to make someone fast, these Online magical coaches would stop self-promoting because they would be too busy coaching.

This entire thread is built on hypocricy and selective anecdotes that suit a nonsensical narrative. Stop listening and run. Just run. You will get better.

Phil is losing ground. Seriously.