Jordan is the GOAT. Get over it Kobe and LeBron fans!

Arete wrote:

Any athlete in the NBA now (ever) who could dunk from the free throw line by taking three steps? Jordan didn't even do it running (look at his foot). See the Kansas State coach's comments from 3:00-4:15 on Wilt as a freshman dunking his free throws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyz-FhP2ONk&t=3m16s

You must not know. But Giannis and lebron have both dunked from frrethrow twice in actual games

White guys arguing over which black can bend the rules the most. Ridiculous. Hope they never re-open that clown league with Jewish slave owners again.

Right Right hmmm.

Well first of all Kobe came right out of high school like Lebron. How good was he his first year?

Let see. 6 starts... 15 minutes a game 7 ppg. Staggering stats there.

How good was LeBron out the gate?

79 Starts 39.5 Minutes per game. 20.5 ppg.

Yeahh different animals all together.

It's okay all you Kobe fans. I think he has a record that will be hard to beat.

NBA Career Leaders and Records for Field Goals Missed:

1. Kobe Bryant : 14,481 (Mamba Mentality! Right?! Shoot the Rock! Last Shot! Blah Blah).

It's okay LeBron is in 8th with 12,230 ( Hmmm LeBron has more points then Kobe but took 2000 less shots? Good stuff)

Listen all you old heads. It's great we younger people get to learn about how big Jordan was through this the Doc but cmon... LeBron IS THE GOAT. You know it. Don't fight it.

He's Bigger, Faster, Stronger, Smarter and lets be honest.

He's a better person then Mike.

Also my take away from episode one was look the staggering athlete's Jordan had to go against...

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/sites/csnne/files/2020/04/20/danny_ainge_michael_jordan.jpg

LeBron's got it way easier right? (Can't Hand CHECK! Blah Blah)

https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/_WAzwhedXOUpgsQgcb53fw--~B/aD0yNjUyO3c9Mzk4MDtzbT0xO2FwcGlkPXl0YWNoeW9u/https://media-mbst-pub-ue1.s3.amazonaws.com/creatr-images/2019-12/d3996670-26ea-11ea-bb9b-89d615987cc5

NBA Career Leaders and Records for Value Over Replacement Player

1. LeBron James : 133.17

2. Micheal Jordan : 116.08

Good Try.

MyBlackIsBetterThanYours wrote:

White guys arguing over which black can bend the rules the most. Ridiculous. Hope they never re-open that clown league with Jewish slave owners again.

I am black dude..

I was saying lebron is the best too. Kobe is not even in the same boat as Bron and MJ.

MJ was a better (or at least more prolific) scorer, and if he hadn't played 3 years in college, retired twice, and missed almost a full season with injury, he would have put the scoring record out of reach. But Lebron is pretty close, and is slightly more efficient from the field, and a better 3 point shooter. Not sure why he's below average shooting FTs, though.

MJ was probably a better defender too, although Lebron has been pretty good when he actually tries. Lebron's a better rebounder (as he should be) and a much better passer.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet how Lebron came back from 3-1 against the 73-9 Warriors, a team that was considered (until they lost) the best team in history at the time. That may be the most impressive finals victory ever. I also think this conversation would be different if Kyrie and Kevin Love hadn't gotten hurt before the 2015 finals, and the Cavs had won (not a given, but a very probably outcome).

Bro pretty sure we're doing a year of no GOAT talk

westsouthrunner wrote:

MyBlackIsBetterThanYours wrote:

White guys arguing over which black can bend the rules the most. Ridiculous. Hope they never re-open that clown league with Jewish slave owners again.

I am black dude..

Now I've heard everything.

Nope.

Running start AND inside the line by a couple of feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-HBeKyMupk

I'm not saying that it hasn't happened but I haven't seen it from behind the line.

Arete wrote:

Nope.

Running start AND inside the line by a couple of feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-HBeKyMupk

I'm not saying that it hasn't happened but I haven't seen it from behind the line.

ok if we are being that meticulous one of those was with a defender. It wouldn't be a stretch to say Giannis can do it without a defender on him. When lebron did it he had a foot inside the line and two defenders right behind him. Not a stretch to say they couldn't do it

Human Torch wrote:

Michael 24-11 in Finals games.

Lebron 18-33 in Final Games.

I buy that Jordan had better teammates than Lebron in at least 3 -4 or these series, and Lebron's opponents were, on average better, but Lebron did have the better team in some of these series and lost, and the discrepancy in the total wins is even larger than the record.

Although you can't really measure someone's "will to win" Jordan's will to win seemed to translate into game changing performance more emphatically than Lebron's, and to me, that is the difference; and that is giving Lebron every benefit of the doubt that he was as obsessed with winning every game the way Jordan was.

If Jordan was so good how come he could only make 6 finals to Lebrons 9?:) If you look at the Lebrons teams he was a favorite in 2 , a toss up in 2-3, and a major dog in the other 4. Ending up 3-6 is about what you would expect.

My memory is that Jordan was a big favorite in 5/6 of his championships and a pickem in the first. I don't think people understood how old that lakers team had gotten:)

I have no doubt that Jordan was the better scorer. Have 10s on the clock and need 2 points, there is no one else you can imagine with the ball. Better absolute player would be a heck of a lot closer. I go with Jordan but it is close enough not to matter.

Was in HS and college when Jordan was in his prime. Have continued to follow the NBA ever since, and followed both Kobe and Lebron closely. What The Last Dance reminded me (and many who had watched Jordan in his prime) was how he completely dominated the spirts world during his reign. He was transcendent. Witness Bob Knight’s quote during the 1984 Olympics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEd8P7nUj80

One of the greatest judges of talent in basketball history said this about Jordan before he had played a minute in the NBA! (Though to be fair, his Olympic team, made up of college players, played eight games against Bird, Magic, Isaiah Thomas, and the very best the NBA had to offer in a pre-Olympic tour.... and went 8-0 against them!)

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/1984-throwback-to-when-team-usa-led-by-michael-jordan-dismantled-nba-all-stars-in-preparation-for-the-olympics/

And those whom remember when Knight coached Indiana know that he didn’t give compliments easily.

The stats simply don’t do Jordan justice. His combination of drive, athleticism, skill, unquestioned leadership, consistency... he was the ultimate alpha, and there hasn’t been one like him since.

Larry Bird, one of the top four players in the NBA in 1985 (along with Magic, Kareem, and Jordan), called Jordan God after MJ dropped 63 on the Celtics in the playoffs. Magic said MJ was the best player in the league... and it wasn’t even close. These are all-time greats.

I’m a Lebron fan. I love that he went back to Cleveland, and his performance in 2016 to beat the Warriors was amazing. But he also quit on his team in 2018 Finals. That would have been anathema to Jordan.

The only athlete I’ve seen come close to Jordan in total dominance was Tiger Woods.

I’m a Lebron fan. I love that he went back to Cleveland, and his performance in 2016 to beat the Warriors was amazing. But he also quit on his team in 2018 Finals. That would have been anathema to Jordan.

The only athlete I’ve seen come close to Jordan in total dominance was Tiger Woods.[/quote]

The 2018 finals where he averaged 34 points and 10 assists? I know his 51 in game 1 inflated that average a bit, but I don't think it's fair to say he quit. He also (stupidly) hurt his hand by punching the wall after game 1.

I really hope this is a troll post...

First off how do you compare Danny Ainge someone who has never been on any of the all NBA teams to Giannis the reigning MVP who is probably going to defend his title this year.

Also who uses a single advanced stat to compare players, there is so much more that goes into it and value over replacement varies a good amount from year to year and position to position. On top of that I hope you realize that stat is given as a total which means it takes the VORP each season played and totals it rather than averages it, so Lebron, who has played two more seasons than Mike, has a distinct advantage. If you take the average Lebron beats Mike out by a mere .1 with a 7.8 value compared to 7.7 for Mike. This will probably fall to 7.7 or lower by the end of his career.

Flawed argument. Jordan is still the GOAT

I think another thing to remember about Jordan is, for the ten full-season stretch from 1986/87-1997/98, Jordan was the best player every year. He won the MVP five times in that stretch, but in truth he was the best player each of those seasons, better than Magic (winner three of those years), Karl Malone, and Barkley. He was the leading scorer each year, and first team all-NBA Defensive Team nine of those years. Heck, in 1987 Magic won MVP after Jordan lit up the league for 37 a game, his highest single-season scoring average.

Over the course of LeBron’s career, you can’t really say the same, even over his best 10 year span. Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Kobe, Westbrook, and Harden have all been legitimately better in the years they won their MVPs. LeBron has always been top 3, but not the best player in the league every year.

If you didn’t grow up watching Jordan, it’s hard to really explain how transcendent he was, how large a gulf there was between him and everyone else. For ten years.

Paul Bunyan wrote:

Not sure why he's below average shooting FTs, though.

).

Free throws have always been in Lebron's head. It kind of funny at times when he goes in a free throw shooting slump, he will come up with another "style" and hope that works. Even if it does, it will only work for a while and he will have to change again.

I was at a "meaningless" game about 3/4ths through the 07 season and Lebron missed a couple free throws late in the game and the hometown crowd started booing (notice I didn't call them fans). You could tell Lebron was not very happy about getting booed. Later that summer was when Lebron sported the Yankees cap when the Indians were playing them in the playoffs. My opinion has always been that he did that to get back at the Cleveland idiots who booed him at that basketball game. Remember that was the year Lebron and Boobie Gibson destroyed the Detroit Pistons in the Eastern Conference finals and the Pistons have yet to recover.

HoopsFan wrote:

Over the course of LeBron’s career, you can’t really say the same, even over his best 10 year span. Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Kobe, Westbrook, and Harden have all been legitimately better in the years they won their MVPs. LeBron has always been top 3, but not the best player in the league every year.

If you didn’t grow up watching Jordan, it’s hard to really explain how transcendent he was, how large a gulf there was between him and everyone else. For ten years.

That's laughable to say those guys are better than Lebron. You missed Derek Rose who had to be the worst MVP pick ever in the history of the NBA. The Heat crushed them 4-1 that year in the playoffs. Remember, that was the year the idiot coach (and gm) used Lebron as a "decoy" in the playoffs which meant Mario Chambers dribbled the ball around until he turned it over or he passed to Lebron who was standing 30 feet from the bucket (being a decoy) with 4 seconds on the shot clock expecting Lebron to do something with the ball.

If Lebron rightly got the MVP that year, it would have been 5 STRAIGHT YEARS! After that, they just got tired of giving it to LeBron every year and just gave it to whoever could jack up the most shots and score the most points even though no other MVP won a title except Steph Curry who was worthy of his MVP.

I would even go so far as to say Lebron should have won the MVP in 08 over Kobe Klanker as it was already obvious he was much better at that point. 30 points, 7.9 rebounds, and 7.2 assists in the regular season. That was the year they lost to Boston (Garnett, Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo in the semifinals 4-3. Lebron had 35, 32, and 45 the last 3 games which was 44% of the teams total points. Those were some of the most brutal games to watch with both teams not even getting to 80 points multiple games. It was worse than watching the last possession of a ymca game when both teams knew there were 3 teams waiting and the loser wouldn't get to play anymore that day.

That should be Mario Chalmers not to be confused with Tom Chambers of the Suns was lifted up by Mark Jackson for one of the iconic dunks in the NBA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBSTQDwH8

To be clear about 08 between Kobe Klanker and Lebron, in the first meeting, KK went 0-4 the last 6 minutes of the game that Cleveland won 94-90. In the second meeting KK went 0-2 and 0-2 from the free throw line in the last 6 minutes as Cleveland won 98-95. The reason KK couldn't make any shots was because Cleveland was smart enough to double KK knowing he would rather jack up a bad shot than pass the ball to an open teammate.

Lebron scored 33 and 41 in those two games.