I Was Bored, So I Went Back and Watched Ritz, Webb, & Hall Battle at the 2000 Foot Locker Cross Country Championships

Great video. Thanks for posting this.

I was at DisneyWorld to watch the race. I had forgotten how the girls race turned out and had no idea Sara Bei/Hall was dead last at the mile. Very gutty finish!

The Boys race was incredible. My recollection is that they went out of sight a little after the 2 mile mark - with Webb hanging on several yards back - and when they reappeared half a mile later Dathan was 20" ahead. Mind boggling!!! Unbelievable!!! And even more so with hindsight since we know now that Webb and Hall were NOT just excellent milers in high school, they had great distance talent.

As for Ritz's "slow" time, and on a pretty flat course, keep in mind that it was hot and humid! And no shade so much hotter still. And the Disney fairways were soft. Nice to run on but nothing like as fast as hard packed dirt trails.

sasquack wrote:

https://www.runnersworld.com/races-places/a20801237/the-turning-point-of-u-s-distance-running/

Little known fact: #82 went on to a great career in finance:

I think it's a good question to ask but my brother vividly remembers a few early pro members of the NOP talking about Galen Rupp and telling my brother, "There's no way he'll last. Salazar has him destroying himself in workouts where he collapses to the ground afterward."

It's hard to judge based off of such a small sample size.

I don't really know anything about this before he joined Wetmore and especially after Hudson would post stuff online, but I was sort of under the impression that Ritz was self-coached during this period. Again, I don't actually know and wasn't standing there as he worked out, but I would suggest that immediately assuming the school-employed coach in the district in which a runner lives is coaching the athlete in question is a faulty assumption. I mean, nobody was trying to find out who coached me at 16 (nor should anybody have) but if that had been in the internet era and you knew the town, looked up the school, and called the coach he wouldn't have heard of me. Cain was coached by Al, Lukas V. was coached by his mom, Hadley by her dad, Wetmore had a stable of teenagers (but didn't work for the school) way back before he moved to Colorado. I believe Grant Fisher was in this category and Alexa E. too. Now these are outliers, unlike you and me, but the more extraordinary the runners the more likely they're not coached by the official school coach. Then again, like I said, I don't know. Maybe some of you do. It's possible someone here is from his area in Michigan and would see him out with or without Print standing there. Maybe someone's aware of an interview where he addresses this.

His inability to stay healthy as a result of his HS training has been brought up here over the years.

I remember reading in the Harrier magazine about him doing jumping exercises with ankle weights and I heard first hand how he'd run himself to exhaustion in summer workouts.

There is a fine line between optimal training and overtraining and it's easy for us to be Monday morning quarterbacks.

Dathan was and is an inspiration for all young runners and Hall Webb and Ritz will always be the big 3.

Sara Bei was not "dead last" at the mile.

Also the boys race was no battle at all. Webb tried to go with Ritz but Hall didn't even give it a shot.

I saw Ritz battle Anthony Famigletti at the Penn 5k the next spring and man that kid wasn't just talented he was f***ing tough.

Yes, Dathan was and should be an inspiration. He is the toughest and hardest working runner (mentally and physically) that I have ever witnessed, and I trained with a multiple time Olympian. I just remember hearing stories about Dathan's HS team's workouts that were surpassing in quantity of intervals and quantity of miles what my training group was doing at the time. And, that was Dathan's HS team. We were hearing that Dathan was doing even more. My training group at that time was comprised of multiple OT qualifiers and a multiple time Olympian. I remember that we all were shocked and stupified at what we were hearing about his training and his HS team's training. We weren't there to witness it, so who really knows?? It is just what we heard. Who knows if what we heard was actually what was happening. I just wondered if people ever ask if Dathan's HS training experience effected his future ability to stay healthy when training. It sounds like people have brought it up. I just never have come across anything written about it, but I'm not looking for it either. My training group was training at a national class level, and, from what we were hearing, the local HS team was doing more than what we were doing. Seemed a bit much at that time for HS kids. If what I was hearing was true, I remember thinking that is was unbalanced and inappropriate for HS kids. But, it is just what I heard, not what I witnessed myself, so I can't speak to it. I just wondered if it is ever talked about. Dathan being talked about as fragile just doesn't fit with the HS runner we knew and heard about. From what we heard, his HS training was at a "through the roof" level, and I don't recall him ever getting hurt. My training group couldn't believe that he was able to stay healthy doing the things we heard he was doing. He was beyond durable in our eyes. At the prime of his career, he started to be viewed as fragile and unable to handle the training. That just doesn't add up to me pr fit to me. But, who knows.

Thirty seconds or less before they hit the mile, the announcer said Bei was dead last. And that is the way it looked. When I rechecked, it did appear that she had begun moving up by the time she hit the mile split.

I didn't say the boys race was a battle, I said it was incredible based on the incredible race Ritz ran destroying two super runners.

Par for Dathan. After awhile, it just gets old, falsely dramatic, and overplayed. As per the article:

“Ritzenhein staggered through the chute and collapsed to the grass—a signature move.”

Ditto for Webb, Hall, and Solinsky. The hard miles caught up to them. Makes Rupp al the more impressive IMO.

Prins did overtrain and way overrace him. 32x400 in 65 for 22 miles on the day! Insane. Prins was a 3:10 marathoner so he didn't know what he didn't know. On his own, he was running 4M as hard as he could every morning in 8th grade and got down already to 22:00! Impressive for that age.

On the other hand, he was healthy in high school and unhealthy since, and he ended up with a much longer career than either Hall or Webb. Hall was already running 85 mpw at altitude in Big Bear according to the Amby Burfoot article--doesn't say but implies it was junior year. Hall was weakened in the race, I understand, by the accutane treatments he had for acne. He had done a sub 50 downhill 10 miler around that time, showing a great deal of strength and distance promise, despite Deena saying he was a miler.

Here the future American 5000m record holder beats the future half record holder and the mile record holder at 5k. However, as desperate said, Webb was on the cusp of breaking 4 in the mile outdoors already as a junior. He ran the 3:59.9 1600m race at Penn Relays, which year after year produces slow times, and maybe 4:03 for mile, and then got injured and had the end of his season cut short. Then 3:53 as a senior was big, but no one thought he wouldn't smash 4 that year. In fact, that was his real focus. He ran the FL South XC course record in 14:43 in the rain, breaking the record by 9 seconds, before this but then did an absolutely insane workout for the mile in between regionals and nationals, which I can't find the details of, and it seemed that he ran out his legs on that day. By contrast, Ritz had a big cut in mileage and a finishing workout where he ran just 9x400 with 3x66, then 62s, then 58, 57, 55, shades at the end of what he'd do much later with Salazar.

If Webb'd been fresh and thus at full strength, Ritz might have had to go hard from the gun, and Webb was no slouch. In addition to the FL South record, he also ran a controlled 8:45 2M indoors in a much ballyhooed match with Nate Brannen, who disappointed a bit in 8:59. Webb didn't run the 5000m outdoors but would surely have hammered it. Ritz ran 13:44.7 to get right at Lindgren's old record (since beaten by Rupp in 13:37). Ritz then ran 13:27.9 as a freshman at Colorado, one day too old (born 12/30) to count as the American junior record (eventually, German Fernandez took that at 13:25). Later, of course, in his first season with Salazar and fast quarter workouts, he ran the AR 12:56, going from last to third in a race with Bekele. He also ran 27:22 in a tactical hot race at World's and 60 flat to take bronze at World Half, indicating that he was very much in shape to break Hall's HM record. But prior to that Webb actually had the faster 5000m of 13:10 in one serious pro attempt when he was in shape, compared to around 13:16 for Ritz. And in a year shot by injuries in 2006, I think, Webb ran 27:34 10000m at Stanford to beat Ritz in 27:35. On the other hand, Ritz was also the best xc runner we'd had since Craig Virgin probably, and earned bronze at World Junior that year, so tough to think Webb could beat him at it.

And if they didn't run those hard miles and ended up with PRs of 3:50,2:09, and 27:30 would. they have had better careers? Proving that HS broke someone is pretty much impossible. Same thing post career. It is always unclear how much stuff is just bad luck and how much is stupidity. Take Solinsky. He was done in by tripping over a dog. That sounds like pure bad luck more than hard miles. Webb and Hall seems more like the classic overtraining camp but I don't think it was the hard miles that lead to a 3:46 that did in Webb (haven't read as much about Hall). He did fine with those. The problem was he decided to run 3:44 he was going to train even harder and crossed the line

As far as being Ritz being durable, was he running a 120 mpw in HS? Nope. More like 80. I think I would blame overtraining (i.e. more than he could handle) more than what he did in HS.

Good article by Jonathan Gault...

Your point makes sense to me. Dathan is a tremendous competitor who really knows how to go to the well. I really respected and admired that in him. That takes an extraordinary amount of focus and determination. I felt bad for him when his body started to not handle what it was being asked to do later in his career - with the consistent injuries. I then started wondering why his body was breaking down after years upon years of being able to handle a workload that was extraordinary (especially the workouts.workload I heard about with him at the HS level). That made me think that that might actually be the reason for his struggles with injuries later on as what we were hearing about his training in HS was going beyond what even some Olympians I knew were asking their bodies to do at the pinnacle of their careers (but, again, that is just what I heard - never observed it - what I heard might not have been true or accurate). Anyway, just an incredible runner who people in MIchigan really enjoyed watching compete. Not just because he was fast, but because of how he ran - he really knew how to give it his all. Nothing but respect for how he ran.

a reasonable question . wrote:

who won?

I bet it was Rupp. He's really good. Best 10,000 runner of the last 9 years in the world! Which other American runner has been best in the world?

32x400 at 65>that's very close to his 2M pr pace the following spring, but for 8 miles.

Webb's mile of 3:46.91 is the best since 2005, 15 years now beats 9.

I am surprised no one has mentioned Prins doping scandal--having healthy kids take sudafed before races.

I am a Ritz fan and think he's clean but unfortunate 2 of his coaches caught pushing to boundary.

It's impossible to know if Ritz would have been more successful if he had not trained as hard in high school (I doubt it). As it is, I can't even remember how many Olympic teams he made - is it four? I think that's a fair trade for constantly dealing with injuries for 20 years. (Although it is sad when he says that he has to drive to soft surfaces and can't even run on pavement for 10 minutes from his house.) How many ARs and Olympics did these each of these guys get along the way? The hard miles catch up to everyone eventually, and for many American distance runners that is earlier than we want it to be. And yet - I will never not click on a WEBB IS BACK BABY.

coach wrote:

There is a fine line between optimal training and overtraining and it's easy for us to be Monday morning quarterbacks.

Dathan was and is an inspiration for all young runners and Hall Webb and Ritz will always be the big 3.

YMMV wrote:

Ditto for Webb, Hall, and Solinsky. The hard miles caught up to them. Makes Rupp al the more impressive IMO.