I can run 10 miles at 6;40 but cant run a sub 5 mile. How do i train for a fast 5k

Also, I get that this might be monotonous. Find a couple Strava segments (maybe one a 1-2 mile hill climb, and another fun, flat-out 2-3 mile loop) and once you get 6-8 weeks in you can replace a workout with a test on one of these segments (possibly with a mini-workout, like a 10-minute tempo run and 2 x 200m hard, beforehand) every few weeks or so. It'll be a good way to measure your progress (and if you're not on Strava you can time yourself for a TT on these segments and post a list of your results on a piece of paper on your wall, or somewhere else visible).

10 miles at 6:40 doesn't suggest being close to sub-5 mile shape.

For someone equivalently trained and talented, 10 miles closer to 5:50 is a better indicator.

For comparison, I could run 27s 200s all day and ran marathons between 6:30 and 6:40 pace and never broke a 5 min mile.

But if you aren't in school, who cares about the mile?

Keep training for fast long distance and the mile time will improve as a side effect.

sman wrote:

its been a while since Ive tried to run an all out mile but last time I did I ran a 5;27. I wous guess im in about 5:110-5:15 shape but maybe I should just go run one.

Yes. Go run some sort of time trial.

Consider starting at 80 seconds a lap and seeing how many laps you can do.

12.5 laps is a 16:40 5k.

These are some good workouts from someone who calls himself "Not an Expert"

Ernest wrote:

closer to 5:50 is a better indicator.

For comparison, I could run 27s 200s all day and ran marathons between 6:30 and 6:40 pace and never broke a 5 min mile.

I just ran 5:36 pace for a half and am pretty sure I can't run sub 5. Some of us don't have it.

BurtReynoldsMustache wrote:

Ernest wrote:

closer to 5:50 is a better indicator.

For comparison, I could run 27s 200s all day and ran marathons between 6:30 and 6:40 pace and never broke a 5 min mile.

I just ran 5:36 pace for a half and am pretty sure I can't run sub 5. Some of us don't have it.

That's because a mile race is very closely related to your VO2MAX, which is highly genetic and also decreases with age.

Even with a limited VO2MAX, you can improve your threshold by training a lot (a beginner's threshold is at a very low % of VO2MAX, a well-trained runner can get it to very high % of VO2MAX).

The other guy, in addition to having trained himself a great threshold also has a lot of natural speed, but due to his low VO2MAX can't sustain high velocities in races near VO2MAX (Mile-5k primarily).

A 5-min mile requires a VO2MAX of ~60, which is out of reach for a lot of people, and most female runners. That being said, if you truly ran a 1:13 half, it is unlikely you can't break 5 in the mile just based on aerobic strength you should be able to do it. Since you said "I don't know", it seems you just never got in the right race with the right competition pushing you.

I've not tried to run a flat out mile since high school; I'm 38. The 1:13 hasn't come easy, I've been steady 90-100 mpw. I might be able to do it, but it'd be a struggle for sure.

Not an Expert has some good advice although I would start off doing the drills only 3 times a week, not before every run yet.

The question not yet being asked: How old are you? That makes a big difference. It sounds like you are in High School. Some people mature at different rates. When I was 16, I couldn't break 5 for the mile. In my 20's I ran 4:11 for 1600m, 1:51 for 800m. Some of it was due to being a late bloomer, some of it due to learning how to train (my HS coach didn't know what he was doing).

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

smh my head wrote:

I ran 4:46 and I think the fastest I could do a 10-miler in would be like 6:30 pace. I don't know what y'all are talking about, you don't need to be able to do 10 miles in 60 minutes to run sub 5.

Did you have 64-65s 400m speed like OP? Then respect. There are different ways to a sub 5 mile, from speed side or endurance side and it seems you came from the speed side. I still doubt that a 64/65 400m guy without the endurance to do a 10 miler faster than in 6:30 pace can run a sub 5 mile.

I don't know if I ever did a 10 mile run, and was maybe 59 s for 440 yds back in the day, but I was 4:40 mile, 9:50 2 mile.

Why are you all saying this? Last weekend I ran 10 at 6:55 pace and I ran 5:02 the third meet of this indoor season with little to no base. You don’t need to run sub 6 long run pace to go sub 5, and I probably would’ve gone sub 5 if I didn’t get myself boxed in at the back right out the gun and had to run the first lap trying to get up to the front

youre all crazy wrote:

Why are you all saying this? Last weekend I ran 10 at 6:55 pace and I ran 5:02 the third meet of this indoor season with little to no base. You don’t need to run sub 6 long run pace to go sub 5, and I probably would’ve gone sub 5 if I didn’t get myself boxed in at the back right out the gun and had to run the first lap trying to get up to the front

Yeah, the people who are arguing about this have lost the thread in at least three ways:

-what needs to be done to run a sub-5 mile isn't what the OP asked, he asked about what he should do to run a faster 5k in the fall.

-they're fixating on one of the few data points in the original post where the OP mentions running 10 miles at 6:40s fairly easily, and using a maxed-out 10-mile run as a parameter for what is needed to run a sub-5 mile when there are numerous better ones (I wouldn't tell the OP, who I assume is a HSer, to ever run 10 miles all-out except maybe as a fun summer and/or mid-winter race once or twice a year at most).

-and yes, some of the standards being given for the off-distance performances necessary to run a sub-5 mile (again, not the topic of the thread) are so absurd as to render any of the advice given by the people making these claims HIGHLY suspect.

I would also encourage you, "youre all crazy," not to view your personal experience as necessarily prescriptive for others, though, even if it may be in this case. Everyone is an experiment of one, and by thinking that your experience is universal you may end up down the same nuts path as some of these folks you're disagreeing with.

And whoever suggested starting doing the drills only 3 times a week to begin with gave good advice. If you haven't done them before, you should ease into them.

You'll need to surgically change your muscle fiber composition. If you don't have enough Type 2 or 2A fibers, you stand no chance.

slow guyyy wrote:

smh my head wrote:

I ran 4:46 and I think the fastest I could do a 10-miler in would be like 6:30 pace. I don't know what y'all are talking about, you don't need to be able to do 10 miles in 60 minutes to run sub 5.

yeah this is completely absurd lol.

Except it would be easier if you do. There's a difference between simply, dipping under 5;00 and passing out at the end compared to being a true sub 5 miler who can still walk after they finish the race.

I'd rather have the fitness to sub sub 5 consistently than have it be a once-in-a-lifetime achievement.

The guys I know who can run sub 5 are not satisfied with anything slower than 4:40.

For more background about me, I am currently 16, a junior in high school and want to have a good senior season. I started running the in the middle of my sophomore year and my first trial i got a 7;30 mile. I ran indoor track and ran about 20 mpw and got my mile time down to 5:55. After the indoor season, I didnt run much at all until May, when I decided I would do xc, decided I wanted to get good and started training. I started at 20 mpw, and built up to 55 mpw for a few weeks by the end of the summer. I went to xc where we ran about 35-40 mpw for the most part and finished with a pr of 18;36. I alos did a solo time trial for the mile and ran a 5;27. I ve been training on my own since and the 6;40 ten miler is one of my most recent workouts. Ive also ran a 3.5 mile tempo at 5:59 pace, so I would guess im in about 17;50ish shape for the 5k. My goal is to try and run 16;30 is for the 5k next year in xc. I am 5'7 and about 123 pounds.

this is some ridiculous goalpost moving now that you've been called out as a fraud. he asked how to break 5, not 4:40.

bartholomew_maxwell wrote:

slow guyyy wrote:

yeah this is completely absurd lol.

Except it would be easier if you do. There's a difference between simply, dipping under 5;00 and passing out at the end compared to being a true sub 5 miler who can still walk after they finish the race.

I'd rather have the fitness to sub sub 5 consistently than have it be a once-in-a-lifetime achievement.

The guys I know who can run sub 5 are not satisfied with anything slower than 4:40.

My Pr in the mile is currently 4:41.

The fastest 10 miler I've ever dropped was at about 6:15 pace, but there must have been cocaine in my water that day. I usually run long runs between 6:40-7:10 pace, but they are progressive and my last mile or two usually dip under 6.

I do however have 53.7 400m speed so that may be the difference right there.

With this additional info, a few thoughts:

-Try to build to a consistent 65 mpw by mid-June. That seems like a good goal for you.

-You’re either in way better shape than you think (like, low-17s or at least sub-17:30), or (and this is more likely) you’re running your tempo runs too fast. Back them off 10-15s/mile. I know you can go faster, but just trust me on this. If 20 minutes at this pace feels easy, focus on stretching it to 30, even 40 minutes. But also know that as you’re increasing your mileage past where you’ve ever been before 20 minutes at 6:10 pace is a very solid workout.

-You may want to, after you build to 65 mpw, spend the end of June doing a series of 2-3 TTs (maybe a 5k on Saturday, a mile on Thursday, and a 2-mile on Sunday, with just easy running in between). You’ll have fun and surprise yourself with how fast you run, and then you’ll take the week of July 4th as a big down week (take two days off, don’t do any workouts, no runs longer than an hour), and then you can come back and get in a good month-plus of 60+ mpw and strength-oriented workouts in before preseason begins.

Please do not, I repeat, DO NOT, listen to the poster saying you have to be able to run 10 miles in under 65 minutes. Almost every single fringe sub 5 guy in high school would struggle to do that.

Especially considering your current mileage and fitness, this is an extreme goal and will not end well if aimed at for a longer period of time.

Continue building on what you've got. The junior year mileage and times are positive -- if you continue building on that workload and work in some shorter hills and strides you should be able to get there.

Again, it's more about consistency and progression -- suggesting that you have to run ten miles in 64 minutes when you run 3 mile tempos at 6 minute pace is plain stupid.

How can I tell someone how to run a faster 5K when I do not know what their 5k time is? Well if you can only run a 10 mile at 6:40 pace the only clear answer is to run more miles because your endurance isn't good clearly.